jhwentworth

How to keep snowmobiling alive in NH

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I've been reading every one of these posts, and there are some very valid points. I've been riding all my life, (started at 5, 48 now), consider myself a sport rider and I see how the sport has outpriced many of my friends who used to go. I have 4 sleds, and register them all every year, and with the recent winters, that's pricey. We have threads here on SledNH saying register early, register in November, etc. Sorry, but no way. $244 for one or two snowstorms isn't happening. Am I one problem? Maybe, but I'm also a parent and have bills to pay. Priorities. I'm also a 17 year member of my club. The youngest member I'd say is around 30. Another Problem...

There are many things that need to be fixed to attract new riders.

I think clubs should set the speed limits! 45 in Pittsburg is stupid, but perfectly justified in Milton with its windy trails. Change in that area would be way good.

 I also think we need to address off trail riding WAY sooner than later. That kind of riding is being pushed by the manufacturers. If you went to the grass drags this year, you probably noticed the HUGE push on mountain sleds! Those were front row at every dealer, with the trail sleds kinda in the back somewhere. Unfortunately the dealers think NH is Montana or Wyoming with miles and miles of mountainous area or wide open field to sidehill or plow through. There are very few places like that here, and I think NONE below the White Mts, so if Maine has more, so be it. We can't be like Maine, or Montana, just like we can't be like Moab when it comes to certain off road activities. We're NH and we have certain geography we must take care of, OR promote certain areas to do that type of riding in. I get WideOpenOrNothins ideas and opinions, but unfortunately the dealers products have changed the way we snowmobile here in NH way faster than we as a state has adapted, and in the long run, more and more clubs are paying the price with pissed landowners and closed trails.

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2 hours ago, smallengineguy said:

I've been reading every one of these posts, and there are some very valid points. I've been riding all my life, (started at 5, 48 now), consider myself a sport rider and I see how the sport has outpriced many of my friends who used to go. I have 4 sleds, and register them all every year, and with the recent winters, that's pricey. We have threads here on SledNH saying register early, register in November, etc. Sorry, but no way. $244 for one or two snowstorms isn't happening. Am I one problem? Maybe, but I'm also a parent and have bills to pay. Priorities. I'm also a 17 year member of my club. The youngest member I'd say is around 30. Another Problem...

There are many things that need to be fixed to attract new riders.

I think clubs should set the speed limits! 45 in Pittsburg is stupid, but perfectly justified in Milton with its windy trails. Change in that area would be way good.

 I also think we need to address off trail riding WAY sooner than later. That kind of riding is being pushed by the manufacturers. If you went to the grass drags this year, you probably noticed the HUGE push on mountain sleds! Those were front row at every dealer, with the trail sleds kinda in the back somewhere. Unfortunately the dealers think NH is Montana or Wyoming with miles and miles of mountainous area or wide open field to sidehill or plow through. There are very few places like that here, and I think NONE below the White Mts, so if Maine has more, so be it. We can't be like Maine, or Montana, just like we can't be like Moab when it comes to certain off road activities. We're NH and we have certain geography we must take care of, OR promote certain areas to do that type of riding in. I get WideOpenOrNothins ideas and opinions, but unfortunately the dealers products have changed the way we snowmobile here in NH way faster than we as a state has adapted, and in the long run, more and more clubs are paying the price with pissed landowners and closed trails.

The landowners have much more say than the ''clubs''... I think sometimes people forget that.

 

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5 hours ago, John Mercier said:

The landowners have much more say than the ''clubs''... I think sometimes people forget that.

 

John, what is your relationship to ohrv in NH?

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22 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

my wife is my best friend and my time is spent with my children

i am active in my community,  I coach multiple sports for my son. 

 

 

21 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

The time I have allotted for community is dedicated towards my children’s lives and military. I do my part by promoting sledding through my family and friends

You are one of NH’s snowmobiling problems. I don’t Care  what you’ve done before. 

You are not the only person who has a wife, kids, who spends their time with kids, is active in the community, and other obligations. We all have that, but yet you want us to take care of this because you don't have time? You posed a question, I gave you a very strait forward and valid answer to contact the NSA about this. Your response was to tell me you don't have the time and to call me one of NH's snowmobiling problems and that you don't care, what I've done before. For the record I have never claimed to have done anything or posted that I've done, this or I've done that, so I don't know where that came from, but hey whatever, nice attitude.

And then there was this "Many of you have been doing great work for sledding in NH for a long time. That does not mean the ball wasn’t dropped" Nice back handed complement, you guys did great, but you dropped the ball, and we are all gonna go to Maine unless you fix it. You said "Younger generation doesn’t want to deal with out dated laws when they are going to get rung up for $75+ a ticket." The younger generation needs to step up and get involved if they don't like something and help to change laws, but that takes time, work, and effort. If they don't make time to help change it or run off to Maine, then things will never change. If they expect someone else to do it for them, then things will never change.

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19 hours ago, snorander said:

Because you were being a dick?  LOL come on, now that was funny :lol::lol: 

I peaked in yesterday evening and started dying laughing. 

Well done

of course I’m a dick, I’m a New Englander

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1 hour ago, snorander said:

 

You are not the only person who has a wife, kids, who spends their time with kids, is active in the community, and other obligations. We all have that, but yet you want us to take care of this because you don't have time? You posed a question, I gave you a very strait forward and valid answer to contact the NSA about this. Your response was to tell me you don't have the time and to call me one of NH's snowmobiling problems and that you don't care, what I've done before. For the record I have never claimed to have done anything or posted that I've done, this or I've done that, so I don't know where that came from, but hey whatever, nice attitude

This is a perfect example of skier vs snowboarder. When snowboarding came out all the skiers hated it. 

The reason I referenced my life SnoRander is because It Is well known that old time riders have a bias to younger riders. 

Older trademans have a bias towards younger tradesman

younger generations bias is the older guys wont listen to them. I’m sure it’s been that way since the age of man. 

So, sometimes a little background will get someone to pay attention when you talk. 

I contacted NHSA after you said that. I posted on here that I did so.  If you look on page two you’ll see it. 

I have been trying to speak in collective terms: we, us, NH, 

TIME IS OUR MOST VALUABLE RESOURCE, YOU CAN NEVER GET TIME BACK. 

So I have ZERO time to waste sugar coating, pandering to, or anything other than to state my point and to continue doing so in a straight forward manner. 

SO TWIST MY WORDS ALL YOU WANT, everything I’m saying to my point is not being done at ANY SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL. 

When I reference “you are the problem” I clearly stated that - that classic, predictable, unfunny, useless comment You opened with:

How to keep snowmobiling alive in NH....

Step 1: Stop bitching about it on the internet.

Step 2: Go out and ride

Wrong answer man

i will get to the second half of your comment. I promise  

Edited by WideOpenOrNothin

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1 hour ago, snorander said:

And then there was this "Many of you have been doing great work for sledding in NH for a long time. That does not mean the ball wasn’t dropped" Nice back handed complement, you guys did great, but you dropped the ball, and we are all gonna go to Maine unless you fix it. You said "Younger generation doesn’t want to deal with out dated laws when they are going to get rung up for $75+ a ticket." The younger generation needs to step up and get involved if they don't like something and help to change laws, but that takes time, work, and effort. If they don't make time to help change it or run off to Maine, then things will never change. If they expect someone else to do it for them, then things will never change.

Again not a back handed compliment, I don’t do those. Start with why I’m proud, end with why you’ve disappointed me. That was my approach to that comment and it was in context to what I’ve been saying the whole time. 

For decades many people have made NH snowmobiling a very good product. BUT

that doesn’t excuse the facts that it is clear that people in charge of decisions are at the front of why NH has lost riders between the ages of 30-50. Further left of 50 you go- the less riders NH has in that age bracket.

when you are in charge of something and the product begins to be less than. It’s the persons fault who’s in charge. 

Come on, why does that have to be sooo offensive. 

All 3 of my trail sleds have NH stickers on them, not Maine! I am still here, not in Maine like everyone else I know. — so your comment of me just leaving for Maine is useless

I HAVE A VERY HIGH OPINION OF MY GENERATION, VERY PROUD OF IT. I KNOW IF NH cared about it then clubs would be better than ever. 

We are VERY HARD WORKERS!

weve been fighting 3 wars for over 15years

We obviously believe in community

We have lots of children, my parents have 12 grandkids. 

We are heavily involved in our kids lives and teach them this hard work. 

I hope to be able to start doing trail work for my local club come next fall and each year. 

Of course I want to help, but my time is prioritized else where in life that- no I am not the face of the movement. 

If I have to choose between coaching my son’s football team in the fall or not be able to snowmobile on your trails if I don’t do trail work. 

I’ll pick football with my son every time!

it doesn’t have to be one or the other so again don’t twist my words. 

Maybe I’ll spin something up on why I think the, what I call, the “War on Terror” generation is truly the next great generation and why I think NH snowmobiling would be stronger than ever if we could get them to ride here again.  

Oh and this constant, if you just go to Maine and don’t put in effort and help than ITS YOUR FAULT NH DROVE YOU INTO MAINE TO RIDE. HOW DARE YOU NOT FIX WHAT YOU DIDNT UNINTENTIONALLY CAUSE.

technology and sport evolution moved the sport to this.  

Edited by WideOpenOrNothin

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Agreed W.O.O.N. (Not sure you like W.O.O.N. but way easier than spelling it all!) Evolution did move the sport to this. The crappy part is that the sport WAY outpaced the places... Case in point:

13394039_10154228056088609_1553989261824

ITS85N between Greenville and Elephant Mountain has recently been closed down due to the disappointing decision by some riders in the Secret Pond logging operation to ride off the marked trails and ultimately causing damage to the log yard.

The majority of Maine's snowmobile trails are on private land and we have no sense of humor for this level of abuse. Have respect for Maine's landowners and the volunteers who work hard to maintain trails for all to enjoy.

 

This is in Maine..

Unfortunately with the big push for big tracks, anywhere the sled can go is where they ride. How do we convince, with the hype, videos of off trail riding, and the trend we are in right now with it, "younger riders" not to wreck what many "older riders" have worked so hard for?

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I agree with your point that even in Maine there's a backlash against off-trail riding. In this case the knuckleheads rode a sled  around a log yard and over a log pile and  Weyerhauser shut down the trail until logging operations were completed. The Moosehead club was able to reopen the trail for this weekend, then it will be closed until 2/1/2019.

I don't think these perps were long-track back country types, just your average, garden variety morons.

Maine.PNG

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It doesn't matter what the sled manufacturers advertise and push, it still comes down to respect. If you don't RESPECT the wants of others, land owners, this will continue to happen. Maybe when people like this are caught, they need to be charged with trespassing not just "off trail" riding. I don't know.

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56 minutes ago, smallengineguy said:

Agreed W.O.O.N. (Not sure you like W.O.O.N. but way easier than spelling it all!) Evolution did move the sport to this. The crappy part is that the sport WAY outpaced the places... Case in point:

13394039_10154228056088609_1553989261824

ITS85N between Greenville and Elephant Mountain has recently been closed down due to the disappointing decision by some riders in the Secret Pond logging operation to ride off the marked trails and ultimately causing damage to the log yard.

The majority of Maine's snowmobile trails are on private land and we have no sense of humor for this level of abuse. Have respect for Maine's landowners and the volunteers who work hard to maintain trails for all to enjoy.

 

This is in Maine..

Unfortunately with the big push for big tracks, anywhere the sled can go is where they ride. How do we convince, with the hype, videos of off trail riding, and the trend we are in right now with it, "younger riders" not to wreck what many "older riders" have worked so hard for?

I saw this on a face book page.

 

Most of the responses were in the way of "ain't hurtin nuthin"  "Landowner needs to not be such a bitch" "you don't want sleds on the log pile then put up more signs" "trees for traction,bro,lol" "it's maine.we can ride wherever we want"

You just can't fight that mentality.

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13 minutes ago, nhgator said:

I saw this on a face book page.

 

Most of the responses were in the way of "ain't hurtin nuthin"  "Landowner needs to not be such a bitch" "you don't want sleds on the log pile then put up more signs" "trees for traction,bro,lol" "it's maine.we can ride wherever we want"

You just can't fight that mentality.

Guys, can we acknowledge that no respectable rider would do this... 

this is not a reflection of off trail or trail riders- I mean this was done on the side of a trail right. Without evidence you have nothing to go on.

Common sense would lead you to believe it was most likely a young male in his 20’s. Maybe a dumber male in his 30’s, solid chance a teen age boy even.

Who knows what kind of sled. The beautiful thing about the sport is there’s a FRILLION snowmobiled out there. I bought my son a 96 340 fan for $400 this summer- boom he’s on the trail.  You can get an 09 mountain sled for couple thousand dollars. 

NONE OF THIS EXCUSES LACK OF RESPECT.  

we as a country have fallen into a terrible disease of lack of respect. Something I mentioned I think is being combatted by parents today. 

Skate boarders had been maligned for years. Kicked out of this parking lot, that parking lot. 

What did communities do- they opened Skate Parks to FOCUS the group into an area where they could appreciate, deep comfortable and just enjoy the sport they love doing. 

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I would assume these riders are young, there has been a lack of parenting, and never heard the world “no”

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1 hour ago, smallengineguy said:

Agreed W.O.O.N. (Not sure you like W.O.O.N. but way easier than spelling it all!) 

If you can insert an acronym than you do it damn it. That’s a rule 

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On Monday at 6pm wch6(Maine channel)  Bill Green will be doing a special on off trail snowmobiling in Maine.   It’s here.... 

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18 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

John, what is your relationship to ohrv in NH?

Ex-President of a local club, Ex-President (and longest office holder) of NHOHVA, snowmobiled from 1967 to 2003, rode ATV from 1986 to 2003, present landowner.

 

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3 hours ago, gunmaker said:

It doesn't matter what the sled manufacturers advertise and push, it still comes down to respect. If you don't RESPECT the wants of others, land owners, this will continue to happen. Maybe when people like this are caught, they need to be charged with trespassing not just "off trail" riding. I don't know.

The off-trail riding is the trespass charge. It can be converted to a felony trespass if damage was done.

 

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3 hours ago, classicdmax said:

I would assume these riders are young, there has been a lack of parenting, and never heard the world “no”

Quote

 

I think we make that assumption far too often. The reason that I was able to hurt myself badly enough to not be able to ride was doing something legal, but very stupid for my level of experience. 

 

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13 hours ago, John Mercier said:

Ex-President of a local club, Ex-President (and longest office holder) of NHOHVA, snowmobiled from 1967 to 2003, rode ATV from 1986 to 2003, present landowner.

 

I didn’t gloss over the information you put in comment about where to find land owner info. That was great information that I would expect you’d agree isn’t common knowledge. 

John,

Do you think NH’s max speed limit is a contributing factor to the decline of snowmobile registration?

Do you think NH’s zero tolerance for off trail riding is a contributing factor to the decline of snowmobile registrations?

If the, powers at be, conducted “talks” with landowners, clubs, public and themselves to learn and understand the pros/cons and affects of this type of snowmobiling—Do you think concessions could be made where this type of riding could be welcomed in NH?

I appreciate the time you’ve given to the thread already and look forward to hearing your response.

Adam 

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20 hours ago, gunmaker said:

It doesn't matter what the sled manufacturers advertise and push, it still comes down to respect. If you don't RESPECT the wants of others, land owners, this will continue to happen. Maybe when people like this are caught, they need to be charged with trespassing not just "off trail" riding. I don't know.

I'm pretty sure when you go to a dealer and buy a mountain sled, the dealer isn't going to have a class on proper riding and landowner respect. They're going to take the money and hand over the sled, SO actually it DOES matter what the manufacturers push. Posters on the dealer walls of sleds side hilling and high marking. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do with the sled, so let's do it. If you're a 20 something making your first sled purchase, all you care about is the fun, not the consequence.

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31 minutes ago, smallengineguy said:

I'm pretty sure when you go to a dealer and buy a mountain sled, the dealer isn't going to have a class on proper riding and landowner respect. They're going to take the money and hand over the sled, SO actually it DOES matter what the manufacturers push. Posters on the dealer walls of sleds side hilling and high marking. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do with the sled, so let's do it. If you're a 20 something making your first sled purchase, all you care about is the fun, not the consequence.

Now, shocker, I’m not a fan of excessive regulations and being told what to do 

But...

These machines these days are serious pieces of equipment. Horse power that rivals motorcycles on little trails paved with snow. Or even OHRV, paved in dirt, same thing. 1000cc side by sides- you name it. 

You have to take a motorcycle course

you have to take a hunting course

maybe a mandatory OHRV course would make a  serious EDUCATIONAL difference!

gun safety courses for CC permits

All courses that serve amazing safety and rule educating purposes!! 

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It still comes down to respect. No matter what you ride, you RESPECT the land owner, see above picture. It doesn't matter what the dealer pushes, you RESPECT the land owner, and if you only ride trails, you RESPECT the other riders. Plain and simple

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1 hour ago, gunmaker said:

It still comes down to respect. No matter what you ride, you RESPECT the land owner, see above picture. It doesn't matter what the dealer pushes, you RESPECT the land owner, and if you only ride trails, you RESPECT the other riders. Plain and simple

I took SmallEngines comment to you as;

the manufacturers bear responsibility for disregarding for rules of the sport they promote, they did so by. Instead of educational/proper promotion. They promoted mountain sleds like everywhere in America is the Mid West. 

As stewarts of the sport they took advantage of a money maker instead of what’s good in the long term 

Edited by WideOpenOrNothin

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13 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

You have to take a motorcycle course

you have to take a hunting course

maybe a mandatory OHRV course would make a  serious EDUCATIONAL difference!

gun safety courses for CC permits

All courses that serve amazing safety and rule educating purposes!! 

Totally agree and add Biats to the list that have to take a safety course. Sadly State law only requires that all operators 12 years of age and over must possess either a valid Motor Vehicle Driver’s License or must have successfully completed an approved OHRV or Snowmobile Safety Education Class when operating off their own property. So it is such a small window age wise (4 years) that people are required to take the safety class.  I took it with my son this year. There is always something you can learn and I would have no problem if the state made this mandatory for everyone. There would be a lot of people who might learn something and a lot of people who don’t care and just take it so they can ride, look at all the people who have their drivers licenses and still drive like morons. But I think it would be better than nothing.

Edited by snorander

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6 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

I didn’t gloss over the information you put in comment about where to find land owner info. That was great information that I would expect you’d agree isn’t common knowledge. 

John,

Do you think NH’s max speed limit is a contributing factor to the decline of snowmobile registration?

Do you think NH’s zero tolerance for off trail riding is a contributing factor to the decline of snowmobile registrations?

If the, powers at be, conducted “talks” with landowners, clubs, public and themselves to learn and understand the pros/cons and affects of this type of snowmobiling—Do you think concessions could be made where this type of riding could be welcomed in NH?

I appreciate the time you’ve given to the thread already and look forward to hearing your response.

Adam 

For active club members, it is pretty common... though I have to admit I have found several officers that did not know the information was public. 

I think the decline in snowmobile registrations is due to the Polaris/Bombardier Marketing Study done in 1995, and released to the public at the ISC in 1998.

They determined that discretionary income was not growing in traditional snowmobile regions and would over the next twenty years result in declines. They further determined that much of what was being considered as discretionary income was in actuality income that was being diverted from other long term goals... retirement being the one delivered at that time. The Study felt that going forward... the aging snowmobile community... would hit the pre-retirement age and shake out. 

As for speed and off-trail riding... I think you fail repeatedly to recognize that landowners determine much of that. So a bigger issue would be the loss of land access. The concessions would need to be by landowners open to the concept. Those landowners are the powers. Some will be against, some will be open... or at least I think some will be open... since other formats of usage that have been told for a very long time that they would not get landowner support, when they asked landowners found they could.

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