jhwentworth

How to keep snowmobiling alive in NH

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12 minutes ago, classicdmax said:

I think I agree with wideopenornothin, I believe NH does need to adapt. I don’t ride back country nor do I have the desire at the moment, but wouldn’t mind trying it someday.

To lose the younger generation of riders, the future of snowmobiling to the lack of off trail riding will not help the cause at all.

Same here. I have zero interest in riding off trail, but anyone can see it has become a huge segment of snowmobiling. Read my posts I never once said I disagreed with him. I simply stated he should take it up directly with the NHSA and for that I'm the problem....and look at that, he did just what I suggested...

Edited by snorander

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1 minute ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

I said said RINO twice to make a point, not insult you. There was content before and after that word to drive home a point!!

everything I’m saying to you guys is to drive home a point. 

Slednh is NH’s oldest snowmobile forum with the largest community of important NH Snowmobilers and snowmobiling names. 

The acronym "RINO" has the long-established meaning of Republican In Name Only, and has been used by conservatives to describe a Republican who isn't conservative enough. And yes, the term was meant to be somewhat insulting. It may have been a poor choice of words used in this forum as politics doesn't seem to intrude here too often, which I think is a good thing.

I do believe that most people got your points: You think that higher speed limits and more off-trail riding would be good for sledding in NH. I'd suggest that you create a survey and post it to sledNH to see what the people here think.

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I’ve read them all, it’s all been constructive conversation. But if the problem is with lack of registrations, then nhsa has to widen its eyes to the bigger picture. Not sure raising fees is the solution, but volume in registrations is. As well as the impact on local businesses with more riders.

its like any other governing body, when budgets are falling short the easy answer (to them) is to increase taxes 

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7 minutes ago, classicdmax said:

I think I agree with wideopenornothin, I believe NH does need to adapt. I don’t ride back country nor do I have the desire at the moment, but wouldn’t mind trying it someday.

To lose the younger generation of riders, the future of snowmobiling to the lack of off trail riding will not help the cause at all.

i used to be part of the 4x4/rock crawling community. For us the big issue was access to land and education. Often access wasn’t easy to attain without educating others to our sport. I’m not suggesting I’ll lead the way, but maybe folks/nhsa need to take a moment to understand and educate themselves to the needs of other riders and their desired riding style 

Love it Dmax! Great insight into your sport you’ve lost. I think your right on the money too 

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Ideally, a group of offtrail riders should take their issue straight to nhsa, and in manner as to promote partnership between the two and present them with some plan or proposal. Pepper these people with your desire to ride in nh, off trail

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My son follows alot of the "off trail" riders pages. I think these different groups need to get together and stand up for what you want. I don't ride off trail, but i'm not against getting it legalized it  certain spots. I would love to see the Balsams be turned into a off trail resort. Register, have a sticker on your sled,stay there and ride. If you do not want to ride off trail, you don't get the sticker and you can still stay there and ride the trails. If you are caught riding off trail, you get into trouble. You could even do day passes. The groups who are riding off trail need to bring it up in a government meeting as one. A great man once said,"a word never spoken is never heard".  But please read the article on page 25 as i said. jmo

Edited by gunmaker

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6 minutes ago, jhwentworth said:

The acronym "RINO" has the long-established meaning of Republican In Name Only, and has been used by conservatives to describe a Republican who isn't conservative enough. And yes, the term was meant to be somewhat insulting. It may have been a poor choice of words used in this forum as politics doesn't seem to intrude here too often, which I think is a good thing.

I do believe that most people got your points: You think that higher speed limits and more off-trail riding would be good for sledding in NH. I'd suggest that you create a survey and post it to sledNH to see what the people here think.

Very true it’s long history as that meaning and that’s why I said it. 

As in, “you claim to love snowmobiling, but you don’t really love snowmobiling. You love snowmobiling the way you want snowmobiling to be. And you completely crap on the new version of snowmobiling.”

so yes it was a spin off, well placed(snorander), to emphasize the magnitude of the attitude towards the charging times. 

It will never be like it was even in the 90’s. It can BE WAY BETTER THOUGH. we snowmobile for the thrill, that’s why we go fast and ride deep snow. For the damn thrill of it.

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THAT

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9 minutes ago, classicdmax said:

Ideally, a group of offtrail riders should take their issue straight to nhsa, and in manner as to promote partnership between the two and present them with some plan or proposal. Pepper these people with your desire to ride in nh, off trail

Here’s the One major issue and it’s a BIG ONE. 

You’ve outcasted these groups in NH. 

They are in Maine! Their home base is in Maine. Everyone off trails in Maine! NH has 46k registered sleds, Maine has 80k+, 23,000 non residential registrations in Maine 2017. I bet last year was more. 

Pittsburg has excision films who produces videos but when it’s highly illegal in NH and F&G is waiting at the entrance of the bowl to prove that NH WILL NOT STAND FOR OFF TRAIL RIDING!  

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14 minutes ago, gunmaker said:

My son follows alot of the "off trail" riders pages. I think these different groups need to get together and stand up for what you want. I don't ride off trail, but i'm not against getting it legalized it  certain spots. I would love to see the Balsams be turned into a off trail resort. Register, have a sticker on your sled,stay there and ride. If you do not want to ride off trail, you don't get the sticker and you can still stay there and ride the trails. If you are caught riding off trail, you get into trouble. You could even do day passes. The groups who are riding off trail need to bring it up in a government meeting as one. A great man once said,"a word never spoken is never heard". jmo

Could you imagine how incredible that would be if the balsams had something like that!! What an attraction. 

Listen you’ve done these people wrong for 20 years.

In Maine the trails are fast!

In Maine the off trail is endless!

In Maine, you’re a little freer than your are in NH when it comes to snowmobiling 

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1 hour ago, jhwentworth said:

Do you mean Republican In Name Only? Are you saying that this site is infested with old Democrats flying under a false flag?

As far as being "tax-free" in NH, well, not exactly. The current rooms & meals tax is 9%, and also covers rental cars. NH is also well known for high property taxes and the towns do love vacation homes.

As far as the evolution of sledding in NH, the sport started out with minimal trails and lots of off-trail riding. Due to a negative public reaction,  eventually changes were made to expand the trail system and keep people on the trails. Off-trail riding without written permission was tolerated in the far north for many years in some locations.

 

JH, Maine is full of taxes. If I could avoid paying any of Maine’s taxes I WILL! I don’t want to buy a vacation home in Maine. I’m a NH boy, I want a cabin in NH. I will pay more for a home in NH than less in Maine

but ,if Maine is where I’ll have recreational freedom, encouragement and growth 

then, I’ll go where I’m appreciated

 

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13 minutes ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

Here’s the One major issue and it’s a BIG ONE. 

You’ve outcasted these groups in NH. 

They are in Maine!   

Not all, I’ve seen them in Pittsburg this year.

It has to start somewhere, whether it be a group of bc riders, or an individual who’s itchy to go and get stuck in the powder....legally. Not sure if there’s ever been an open line of communication before between the groups, but if not, it sure does sound like there should be one soon

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5 minutes ago, classicdmax said:

Not all, I’ve seen them in Pittsburg this year.

It has to start somewhere, whether it be a group of bc riders, or an individual who’s itchy to go and get stuck in the powder....legally. Not sure if there’s ever been an open line of communication before between the groups, but if not, it sure does sound like there should be one soon

It’s a great question. I’m not a member of any of these groups. The only one I’ve ever heard of is excision films through their films on OTHER SNOWMOBILE FORUM PLATFORMS.

its a shame sledNH doesn’t have a BC community. Could probably learn about some beautiful spots the ride and view. Places where many of us could probably get to with a little knowledge and guidance

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Hell,  Jericho recently within the last few years has cut dedicated orv trails for the sole purpose of full sized vehicles...I’ve wheeled there a handful of times. The first and only area like that in the state as far as I know. And I do believe it came with a lot of hard work from a local wheeling club Northwoods Off-road NWOR. Time and persistence finally paid off for them with the state and hopefully that paves the way for future expansion of access to state owned land 

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Wide open, here are a few that, rumor has it, might leave the trail once in awhile.  Find them and get together. This is a start to unite and get together.

Edited by gunmaker

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I grew up near Glamis Calif and people ride where they weren't supposed to there also.   The land on the left is closed per the BLM, on the right it goes on for miles. Why?Image result for pictures of hwy 78 in glamis

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The Boss Lady is shutting it down for the night. Time to focus all this crazy energy on the family. 

What a great past 24hrs between the two threads!

if you have been a part of the conversation whether vocally or just reading along.  You should have felt some excitement in one way or another. 

We are a community, I appreciate all you guys. Don’t take my loudness or my attitude personally. If you felt insulted once or twice, maybe it’s for good reason.

Many of you have been doing great work for sledding in NH for a long time. That does not mean the ball wasn’t dropped. NH has made this bed and we have to sleep on it. 

I want NH to be a sledding attraction for the next generation and moving forward. We have all the things we need: trails, lodging, food, drinks, events, amazing sleds. Attitudes and positions have to change!

I’ll check back in tomorrow. 

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40 minutes ago, classicdmax said:

Hell,  Jericho recently within the last few years has cut dedicated orv trails for the sole purpose of full sized vehicles...I’ve wheeled there a handful of times. The first and only area like that in the state as far as I know. And I do believe it came with a lot of hard work from a local wheeling club Northwoods Off-road NWOR. Time and persistence finally paid off for them with the state and hopefully that paves the way for future expansion of access to state owned land 

 

So the club was organized, worked with the land owners (the state), and got an area opened up for them to ride in...well how about that, just what suggested the off trail community do.

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The problem is finding, and organizing the people to do so. The off-road club I was part of it was always the same 5-6 of us doing the leg work....I’m sure the same is true for snowmobile clubs as well. But 5 or 6 is a start, and if that’s what it takes to make change....then success 

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I'm for speed limits to be set discretion of FG agent on that trail, at that time and day.

As for off trail? Buy your own land and go get stuck. Until then, it's called private property. Respect it.

I have one question.  Why must clubs, land owners, and the rest us make provisions or " adjustments" to accept off trail ideals.......why not just ride on the trail like the rest of us?

I would suggest an organization with fees to buy and maintain some sort of park for this activity. However, I seriously doubt there would be enough interest to even get an acre on a hill. But if you think so, get a business plan going.

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36 minutes ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

If you felt insulted once or twice, maybe it’s for good reason.

Many of you have been doing great work for sledding in NH for a long time. That does not mean the ball wasn’t dropped. NH has made this bed and we have to sleep on it. 

I want NH to be a sledding attraction for the next generation and moving forward. We have all the things we need: trails, lodging, food, drinks, events, amazing sleds. Attitudes and positions have to change!

I’ll check back in tomorrow. 

Because you were being a dick?  LOL come on, now that was funny :lol::lol: All kidding aside, You want NH to be an attraction for the next generation and moving forward, but if that is going to happen the next generation is going to have to put in the work to make it happen, not just run off to another state because it's easier. They can't expect someone else to do it for them, they have to help make it happen. I always see "they should", "the state should", never "we should". At the end of the day we all love snowmobiling and want to see it last here in NH, but we have to work together to make it happen. The name calling and mud slinging on both sides accomplishes nothing and needs to stop. We need to work together, united we stand, divided we fall.

Edited by snorander

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Unfortunately you wasting your time talking with NHSA.  They are not concerned at all with any trail issues.  Their action this year in taking $12 of each club membership fee as a "transaction fee" is nothing less than extortion and only helping to sink clubs financially.

You need to start with the NH BOT and the clubs themselves.  The NHBOT staff are the ones that negotiate the land use contracts with the large landowners and the clubs have the trail agreements with the smaller landowners.

Having been a snowmobile trail master for 7 years and now an ATV trail master for 5 years, I can tell you that one of the major concerns of ALL landowners (large and small) is off trail riding. 

On all of the new trails that I have built or rebuilt since 2007, I have included physical barriers on all side trails to make sure people stay on the main trail.  When these barriers are removed or breached, we will go in and fix them on a priority basis.  If someone cuts a new side trail to get around a barrier, we will block that.  If problems continue, we get Fish and Game involved or use game cameras to find out who is causing the damage.

This is part of the commitment that must be made to get new trails opened.  I don't know any landowner that says "go ahead and put the trail in anywhere that you want".  Some landowners will specify exactly where they want the trail.  Others will ask for our recommended route.  But in the end, we agree on the trail location and provide the landowner with a detailed map that shows exactly where the trail is going along with the location of all bridges, culverts, gates and rock barriers.  In addition to our club, the landowner gets keys to all gates.

I do not forsee any easy way to open up off trail riding.  In addition to the sensitive environmental areas that need to be protected, lets talk about the practical aspects. 

Just look at the tree damage from the wet snows that occurred this year.  Even if you were able to get landowner permission to run on an ungroomed trail through their land, who is going to maintain it?  I can tell you that cutting trees that bent over and frozen to the ground is not only dangerous but extremely hard work.

On a groomed trail, the club normally uses the club groomer to help push these trees aside once they have been cut up, but that won't be allowed on ungroomed trails.  Having begged for help in clearing our groomed trails over the past 12 years, I doubt very much you will get any of these riders to show up and spend a day hauling a chain saw through 2' deep snow to clear downed trees so they can ride a few miles of fresh powder.  Its not much fun doing this work even when I have the groomer.  At the end of the day, you are totally wet and exhausted.

How about washouts?  On our main trails we spent thousands of dollars putting in bridges, culverts and ditches to control water.  What do you think those unmaintained trails look like right now after the deluge of rain that we just got?  I am sure there are dozens of 2' deep washouts all over the place.

Right now the only legal off-trail riding that I know of is in Jericho Mt. State Park.  All of the ungroomed ATV trails make great places to hone your off-trail skills.  But even there, you may find downed trees or washouts blocking your way so be prepared to cut your way through or turn around.

 

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6 hours ago, snorander said:

How to keep snowmobiling alive in NH....

Step 1: Stop bitching about it on the internet.

Step 2: Go out and ride

 

:lol::lol:

Another thumbs up...I'm going out tonight after supper.

 

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6 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

The time I have allotted for community is dedicated towards my children’s lives and military. I do my part by promoting sledding through my family and friends

plus is literally said I ride trails with my wife and son. I see the issues SnoRander

So when you say stop bitching and go ride, what are you doing, go volunteer and any typical BS line. 

You are one of NH’s snowmobiling problems. I don’t Care  what you’ve done before. 

So you want landowner permission, but you don't want to do the work?

The NHSA isn't going to do the work for you. You have to locate landowners willing to either provide you with written permission to trespass, or provide an organized club with permission for the public to trespass. 

I'm not trying to tell you that they are out there... but my experience tells me that they exist. How large a lot and the quality of terrain that they provide may be an issue... but maybe not. 

In the end, the loss of any recreational format is largely due to the cost being beyond discretionary household income; and society quickly moves toward pay-to-play.

At 35, you may not be able to see the future financial you, while those of us in our 50s... we see more than we would like. 

 

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10 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

John we understand, “get permission,” where do you find permission? In your long life have you ever drank a beer in the woods without permission, gone on a property without permission. Let’s put the,”lack of respect card” away for just a minute and play devils advocate  

where can people find contact to paper companies or areas in the middle of no where- where who knows who owns it. 

I bet NhSA and fish and game know the land owners. I bet someone in the management of snowmboling in NH knows how to help GUIDE RIDERS, to the right direction. 

I don't think I would have to get permission to drink a beer in the woods... unless I was on someone else's property; and the beer may not be the issue. I have never gone onto a property that I knew that I was not supposed to be on.

Landowner addresses can be found at the local county registry of deeds. Neither NHSA or F&G probably have a list of the local landowners... that is usually the BoT. Each club presents a list of landowners that have given permission and for what type of motorized vehicle to trespass to the BoT. I believe that is available... or could easily be attained under an RSA 91-a request.

 

 

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5 hours ago, classicdmax said:

Hell,  Jericho recently within the last few years has cut dedicated orv trails for the sole purpose of full sized vehicles...I’ve wheeled there a handful of times. The first and only area like that in the state as far as I know. And I do believe it came with a lot of hard work from a local wheeling club Northwoods Off-road NWOR. Time and persistence finally paid off for them with the state and hopefully that paves the way for future expansion of access to state owned land 

It was written into the Jericho Master Plan. There is no option to future access of State-owned land for full size vehicles because of their full size. When Scott Hatch of NEA4WD asked me to support some 4WD trail development in Jericho, I had to explain that those could not classify as an ATV or even a UTV... but could register under ''ATV or other''. It was a long discussion before he understood the implications. For a trail to be cut wide enough to allow passage of two way traffic would be an issue, bridge engineered width and weights would be an issue, and so on. Even the UTV community is limited because these trail development items have to be taken into consideration. Jericho being newly minted at the time, could provide a full size loop engineered to handle the expectations. UTV owners have complained for years that they don't have more legal access... and that is with a fairly decent number of annual registrations to refer to. 

By the time everything merges... it may be that small AWD and 4WD with some 2WD utility-type vehicles may be all that exists in rural areas. The market changes must faster than we can adapt to, and median household discretionary incomes are actually lower than most middle class households think. Many of them have been using what should be expended toward other greater present and future priorities for current recreation. 

I know a lot of those in their 50s that are stunned to learn that they should have large sums of cash tucked away in emergency funding, and that the household income retirement multiple is so high - and they are so far behind - that upon retirement they will lose everything. 

 

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