How to keep snowmobiling alive in NH

[jhwentworth 307]

There are a lot of opinions and debate about what needs to be done to preserve snowmobiling in NH.  I would agree that some of our issues are as local as our club, our county, or our state, but some problems are national. It's hard to avoid national trends like sled and fuel prices, climate,  or average family income. A good swimmer can swim maybe 3-4 mph forward, but a 5 mph rip current will still take you backwards.  Each year the International Snowmobiling Makers Assoc. puts out the IMSA snowmobiling fact book. I compared some stats from 2009 and 2018, and it looks like in 2018 fewer new sleds were sold, sled prices went up, fewer sled were registered, riders got older, fewer people trailer their sleds (vacation homes?), about the same percentage ride their sleds on trails, per-person spending on sleds is down, and we're riding less.

The question is "how many of these national trends are relevant to NH, and how many of our issues are local?" While there's considerable national data available, state data can be hard to come by. Back in 2002-2003 NHSA sponsored a financial impact study of snowmobile spending in NH; is there something more recent? 

IMSA snowmobiling fact book

In 2009: 
There were 147,066 snowmobiles sold worldwide; 61,593 were sold in the U.S. and 49,510 were sold in Canada.
The average suggested retail price of a new snowmobile sold in 2009 was $8,800 (US Funds).
There are approximately 1.65 million registered snowmobiles in the US and 765,275 registered snowmobiles in Canada.
The average age of a snowmobiler is 43 years old.
Approximately 18% of all snowmobilers are 60 years or older and 37% of all snowmobilers are 50 years or older.
54% of the snowmobilers usually trailer their snowmobiles to go riding.
46% either snowmobile from their primary residence or have a vacation home where they keep and use their snowmobiles.
Approximately 80% of snowmobilers use their snowmobile for trail riding and touring on marked and groomed trails.
The average snowmobiler spends $4,000 each year on snowmobile-related recreation.
The average snowmobiler rides their snowmobile 1402 miles per year in North America.

In 2018: 
There were 124,786 snowmobiles sold worldwide; 53,179 were sold in the U.S. and 47,024 were sold in Canada.
(IMSA doesn't offer an average sled price anymore, but higher end sleds will run $13K-$17K)
There are approximately 1.2 million registered snowmobiles in the US and 600,000 registered snowmobiles in Canada.
The average age of a snowmobiler is 45 years old.
49% of snowmobilers trailer their snowmobiles to ride.
51% snowmobile from their primary residence or have a vacation home where they keep and use their snowmobiles.
80-90% of all snowmobile riding takes place on trails, where 10-15% of all snowmobile incidents occur. 
The average snowmobiler spends $2,000 each year on snowmobile-related recreation.
The average snowmobiler rides their snowmobile 1250 miles / 2012 km per year in North America.
 

[AdrenalineJunky 41]

I would buy new sleds near every year between wife and I, like we did throughout 90's and early 2k' s, but they no longer make sleds we want to buy.

We find them to be too tall, cold, and unstable.  Wouldn't like them at 1/4 the outrageous prices.

We are forced to keep our older machines for lack of choices.

Not all buyers want off trail sno cross multi pastel colored gimmicky boat anchors.

Our group was a dozen large and has dwindled down to less than half who simply gave up, and rest of us have shaked our heads year after year with new model release seemingly worse and definitely pricier than last.

 

[jhwentworth 307]

Do you know the reasons why half your group quit?

[noxorc 70]

54 minutes ago, jhwentworth said:

The average snowmobiler spends $2,000 each year on snowmobile-related recreation.
The average snowmobiler rides their snowmobile 1250 miles / 2012 km per year in North America.
 

 

My new goal is 1250 miles 

 

[AdrenalineJunky 41]

32 minutes ago, jhwentworth said:

Do you know the reasons why half your group quit?

They gradually dropped off. Too much expense involved. For the rest of us it was worth it but that's fading. 

Lack of traditional winters dont help.

Imo ATV needs to be phased in for more tourism money. Particularly, SXS trail.

[classicdmax 58]

I grew up as a child on sleds with my father and grandfather. They both passed when I was young, and soon after the ability to sled did as well for my mother didn’t have the resources alone. I’m now 41, and it’s been 5 years since I’ve got back into the sport. Unfortunately my wife has no interest, but my 9yo son does who has riden with me twice now on trail. I’m from Rhode Island, but have acces thru my best friend who’s family and himself own a house in coos where I’m allowed to keep my sleds, which makes this sport easier for a Rhode Islander to attain. I hate to see/hear of the struggles upon snowmobiling as being able to now ride with my son bring back some fond childhood memories 

[jhwentworth 307]

1 hour ago, noxorc said:

 

My new goal is 1250 miles 

 

It's important to have goals. I make them easy ones (like wake up tomorrow) so I can feel like a winner.

[jhwentworth 307]

54 minutes ago, AdrenalineJunky said:

They gradually dropped off. Too much expense involved. For the rest of us it was worth it but that's fading. 

Lack of traditional winters dont help.

Imo ATV needs to be phased in for more tourism money. Particularly, SXS trail.

Climate and cost, sounds like part of the national trend. The ATV/OHRV thing does avoid much of the climate issue, but the cost is still there and there are public relations issues to be dealt with that will probably confine them to the north country.

[WideOpenOrNothin 13]

It stinks the cost of equipment for all recreational activities and sports. Shoot, I pay $150 each baseball season on a bat. If you want to play these days you have to pay. So national numbers are down because many can’t afford it anymore. That goes for atv, boating, skiing, etc. 

23,000. 23,000 non residential registration in Maine last year. That’s 50% of all on NH registrations. No One wants to ride in NH anymore, and by no one I mean people under 40 you can kiss goodbye. NH has lost them. 

I am 35 years old, my wife is my riding partner, and now my 9 year son is registered for his first year, next up is my 7 year old daughter. I’ve been riding Strafford county since I was picking my nose. I am one of the very few remaining of my generation that hasn’t gone to Maine full time.

Speed limit rules are the worst offender of the exodus of my generation.

NH snowmobile community has labeled off trail snowmobile riders “Deplorables.”

The state could care less about finding ways to promote it, they just want to not understand it, label it the devil and outcast any who find it fun. 

Maybe find ways on state land to promote, maybe try talking land owners into allowing some of it, maybe the tree companies would designate areas each year. 

I don’t know something except what you’re doing. Maine has such a HUGE back country community. 

What the hell do you think is going to happen. 

You have crapped on them for so long by staying in the old snowmobiling ways that they’ve moved on to a place that appreciates their business. 

Speed limit- my son can hit 45 all day long safely in barrington, new Durham, Milton, just about anywhere in the state can you safely hit 45. Let alone north of Conway. Everyone is soooooo tired of paying crazy tickets for wanting to snowmobile faster than they can swim. 

I said this last night. 

If NH even increases its registration NH will be FINISHED. I know 7 sleds right now that will never register in NH again. Ever, until NH gets it together. 

[ultrarider 29]

It's continued Trail closure each year, and crappy winters, that have got me thinking of leaving the sport. Not the cost.

[John Mercier 36]

3 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

It stinks the cost of equipment for all recreational activities and sports. Shoot, I pay $150 each baseball season on a bat. If you want to play these days you have to pay. So national numbers are down because many can’t afford it anymore. That goes for atv, boating, skiing, etc. 

23,000. 23,000 non residential registration in Maine last year. That’s 50% of all on NH registrations. No One wants to ride in NH anymore, and by no one I mean people under 40 you can kiss goodbye. NH has lost them. 

I am 35 years old, my wife is my riding partner, and now my 9 year son is registered for his first year, next up is my 7 year old daughter. I’ve been riding Strafford county since I was picking my nose. I am one of the very few remaining of my generation that hasn’t gone to Maine full time.

Speed limit rules are the worst offender of the exodus of my generation.

NH snowmobile community has labeled off trail snowmobile riders “Deplorables.”

The state could care less about finding ways to promote it, they just want to not understand it, label it the devil and outcast any who find it fun. 

Maybe find ways on state land to promote, maybe try talking land owners into allowing some of it, maybe the tree companies would designate areas each year. 

I don’t know something except what you’re doing. Maine has such a HUGE back country community. 

What the hell do you think is going to happen. 

You have crapped on them for so long by staying in the old snowmobiling ways that they’ve moved on to a place that appreciates their business. 

Speed limit- my son can hit 45 all day long safely in barrington, new Durham, Milton, just about anywhere in the state can you safely hit 45. Let alone north of Conway. Everyone is soooooo tired of paying crazy tickets for wanting to snowmobile faster than they can swim. 

I said this last night. 

If NH even increases its registration NH will be FINISHED. I know 7 sleds right now that will never register in NH again. Ever, until NH gets it together. 

It wasn't the snowmobile community that labelled the off-trail riding as deplorable... it was ''us'' the landowners. We consider it ''disrespectful'' when other determine that the use of our property is at their whim regardless of our wishes.

 

[WideOpenOrNothin 13]

1 minute ago, John Mercier said:

It wasn't the snowmobile community that labelled the off-trail riding as deplorable... it was ''us'' the landowners. We consider it ''disrespectful'' when other determine that the use of our property is at their whim regardless of our wishes.

 

Understandable if you do not like it on your property. 

Does every large land owner feel that way?

again

is there state land?

do you think the paper companies and other large parcel owners might be willing to offer sections. 

Or do we continue to lose more and more riders to the point where land owners aren’t needed because there’s no demand for trails. 

NH will be at 20k registrations with Vermont. 

There is a DEMAND for back country ALL ACROSS AMERICA! If you can provide it YOU ARE IN DEMAND. 

If you can’t, then we will continue to decline. 

THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THE SPEED LIMIT!!!

you flick a throttle these days and your at 50mph. It’s ridiculous. 

Get rid of the max limit. Adopt safe driving laws like Maine has. 

WATCH REGISTRATIONS CLIMB OVER FIRST 5 YEARS! Guaranteed! 

How fun is it when you have CO Egan waiting behind a tree on Corridor 5 waiting for a sled to go by at 55. Corridor 5 where you can run 65 easily. How about 112 where it’s 80’ wide and miles long where 80 is a breeze, literally. 

Safe riding is common sense riding! 

Not regulations and fear of fines

[Renegade08 22]

12 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

Understandable if you do not like it on your property. 

Does every large land owner feel that way?

again

is there state land?

do you think the paper companies and other large parcel owners might be willing to offer sections. 

Or do we continue to lose more and more riders to the point where land owners aren’t needed because there’s no demand for trails. 

NH will be at 20k registrations with Vermont. 

There is a DEMAND for back country ALL ACROSS AMERICA! If you can provide it YOU ARE IN DEMAND. 

If you can’t, then we will continue to decline. 

THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THE SPEED LIMIT!!!

you flick a throttle these days and your at 50mph. It’s ridiculous. 

Get rid of the max limit. Adopt safe driving laws like Maine has. 

WATCH REGISTRATIONS CLIMB OVER FIRST 5 YEARS! Guaranteed! 

How fun is it when you have CO Egan waiting behind a tree on Corridor 5 waiting for a sled to go by at 55. Corridor 5 where you can run 65 easily. How about 112 where it’s 80’ wide and miles long where 80 is a breeze, literally. 

Safe riding is common sense riding! 

Not regulations and fear of fines

Regarding speed...I'm curious how many folks are getting stopped and ticketed, and how frequently!?!?  I'm a weekend warrior...have a vacation home in central NH...  And while I very often exceed the 45 MPH speed limits (my whole life...i'm 43 now) I've only been "caught" and stopped once or maybe twice.  With just a warning.  My point is, I ride over 45.  I use common sense and keep an eye...and the speed limit is NOT a deterrent for me to ride in NH.  I mean seriously..."I want to drive faster so I'm going to Maine"...  that sounds silly to me.  BUT maybe I'm in a minority here of being lucky and not having to face the consequences of going over 45.

LAND and riding areas.  This is a big problem.  I very much agree that legislation should consider working to find ways to allow off-trail access.  The demand won't go away.  If the only outcome is that folks go off trail regardless, pissing off land owners, then more and more trails will close and riding will become that much more difficult in the state.  Despite bigger issues in VT (keep reading below) I found it interesting last year when riding there once that we came upon a HUGE open meadow/field and there were signs marking it as a designated area to ride freely.  I thought it was genius...  why not get permission from owners/companies/state to designate various areas as safe.  Mark them on maps and post signs...  OK...that's way easier said than done.  But I agree with WideOpenOrNothing...  Rather than just always saying "Stay On Trail" and closing trails when people close their land...  why not take some actions to make some off trail riding permissible?

In the meantime, land closures are more inevitable.  And until rules change...if you really want to ride faster or go off-trail, then by all means go to Maine.  I could care less and I'll keep riding NH trails.  BUT the outcome of going off-trail in NH at the moment is far more impactful and detrimental than anything else. So STAY ON THE TRAIL!   I actually did ride with some buddies in northern VT last weekend, and there were multiple sections of trails where you had to ride the road for MILES to continue on the trails.  Luckily there was some coating of snow.  During a warm-up, these sections would be impassable!  The reason for those trails having to cross miles of public road...according to my group who are club groomers/volunteers there... land ownership/closures.  Someone closes their land down...and there's no other choice.

Lastly...northern migration is killing trails.  Every year, more and more people move a bit further north.  Once great riding areas in the southern or central part of the state, are getting thinned out as older generations die and sell off large plots of land for developers to come in and build housing..  "Flat landers" move in and could give a rats ass about keeping property open to allow snowmobiling...so trails get closed or very costly re-routes occur.  This won't change.

[Skip 262]

^^^^^^WELL SAID RENEGADE08^^^^^^

[John Mercier 36]

The legislation already exist. Anyone can get written permission to ride on land that is not signed open from the landowner or their representative.

None of the determined off-trail riders want to go through the effort.

 

 

[detchells 10]

Attached is an impact study that NHSA had done in 2010/2011. That is the last time that I know of one was done.

Trail_Study_59-new-hampshire-snowmobiling.pdf

[Shifty 125]

I have to agree that the speed limit is a major deterrent to out of state riders.I see it all the time on national sled forums.it should removed. A night time limit is reasonable.  

[detchells 10]

This attachment is the audit of the OHRV/Snowmobile program that was done in 2012.

FG_OHRV_2012_Audit.pdf

[WideOpenOrNothin 13]

45 minutes ago, Renegade08 said:

Regarding speed...I'm curious how many folks are getting stopped and ticketed, and how frequently!?!?  I'm a weekend warrior...have a vacation home in central NH...  And while I very often exceed the 45 MPH speed limits (my whole life...i'm 43 now) I've only been "caught" and stopped once or maybe twice.  With just a warning.  My point is, I ride over 45.  I use common sense and keep an eye...and the speed limit is NOT a deterrent for me to ride in NH.  I mean seriously..."I want to drive faster so I'm going to Maine"...  that sounds silly to me.  BUT maybe I'm in a minority here of being lucky and not having to face the consequences of going over 45.

LAND and riding areas.  This is a big problem.  I very much agree that legislation should consider working to find ways to allow off-trail access.  The demand won't go away.  If the only outcome is that folks go off trail regardless, pissing off land owners, then more and more trails will close and riding will become that much more difficult in the state.  Despite bigger issues in VT (keep reading below) I found it interesting last year when riding there once that we came upon a HUGE open meadow/field and there were signs marking it as a designated area to ride freely.  I thought it was genius...  why not get permission from owners/companies/state to designate various areas as safe.  Mark them on maps and post signs...  OK...that's way easier said than done.  But I agree with WideOpenOrNothing...  Rather than just always saying "Stay On Trail" and closing trails when people close their land...  why not take some actions to make some off trail riding permissible?

In the meantime, land closures are more inevitable.  And until rules change...if you really want to ride faster or go off-trail, then by all means go to Maine.  I could care less and I'll keep riding NH trails.  BUT the outcome of going off-trail in NH at the moment is far more impactful and detrimental than anything else. So STAY ON THE TRAIL!   I actually did ride with some buddies in northern VT last weekend, and there were multiple sections of trails where you had to ride the road for MILES to continue on the trails.  Luckily there was some coating of snow.  During a warm-up, these sections would be impassable!  The reason for those trails having to cross miles of public road...according to my group who are club groomers/volunteers there... land ownership/closures.  Someone closes their land down...and there's no other choice.

Lastly...northern migration is killing trails.  Every year, more and more people move a bit further north.  Once great riding areas in the southern or central part of the state, are getting thinned out as older generations die and sell off large plots of land for developers to come in and build housing..  "Flat landers" move in and could give a rats ass about keeping property open to allow snowmobiling...so trails get closed or very costly re-routes occur.  This won't change.

Those Vermont examples are very interesting and great examples of ways to promote that type of riding in their state. 

EVERY sport is now more aggressive, faster, safer, more educated than ever before. 

This is the age of X Games! For goodness sake people are doing double back flips on sleds. The equipment, although not a “tough,” is better than ever. 

Do you all travel faster in your cars now, yes- of course you do. It’s because equipment is better and safer. The roads are safer and better. 

I can vouch for many saying yes the speed limit is a serious issue. I have seen many speeding tickets. I have seen warnings. I have seen far more tickets than warnings. I can name 6 spots off the top of my head in Pittsburg alone where our fine conservation officers  love to back into and just wait for sleds to go by over the speed of 50mph. 

Younger generation doesn’t want to deal with out dated laws when they are going to get rung up for $75+ a ticket. 

So they hate that and then as back country exploded and NH treated it like a cancer. Most people under 40 said “F this.Maine has more trails, back country for day and no one cares how fast you go as long as you are riding in a safe manner for everyone.”

Put a census in registrations next year: 

1. How old are you?

2. How long have you been riding?

3. What type of riding do you do?

4. What kind of sled do you ride?

5. Would you prefer a faster speed limit?

6. Do you think promoting back country riding will increase NH snowmobiling?

7. If we increase your registrations with promises of giving money to clubs TO OFFSET THE DECLINJNG OF REGISTRATIONS, would you support that?

Im willing to go stand here and say that you will want to throw up after the total number of people under 40 registering. I bet the difference between 50 and older and 40 and younger will be insanely  drastic. 

So when all you great Nh riders aren’t riding in 10 more years due to age they’ll be nothing left.

YOU ARE OFFICIALLY FEELING THE EFFECT OF NH REFUSAL TO GROW WITH THE SPORT. ITS HERE, WE ARE FEELING IT. 

So what will NH do about it?

 

 

 

[detchells 10]

As far as the speed and off trail riding goes I will not comment on it other than to say both are governed by RSA's. If you think they should be changed contact your state senator or state representative.

[WideOpenOrNothin 13]

23 minutes ago, John Mercier said:

The legislation already exist. Anyone can get written permission to ride on land that is not signed open from the landowner or their representative.

None of the determined off-trail riders want to go through the effort.

 

 

John we understand, “get permission,” where do you find permission? In your long life have you ever drank a beer in the woods without permission, gone on a property without permission. Let’s put the,”lack of respect card” away for just a minute and play devils advocate  

where can people find contact to paper companies or areas in the middle of no where- where who knows who owns it. 

I bet NhSA and fish and game know the land owners. I bet someone in the management of snowmboling in NH knows how to help GUIDE RIDERS, to the right direction. 

[WideOpenOrNothin 13]

7 minutes ago, detchells said:

As far as the speed and off trail riding goes I will not comment on it other than to say both are governed by RSA's. If you think they should be changed contact your state senator or state representative.

That’s a great piece of advice. I’m going to look further into them and contact our reps. 

HOWEVER, this is why we have NHSA and other such organizations. The people at the top are supposed to be speaking for the community. Recognizing what it needs and pushing law makers to help make the sport An amazing product in NH. 

 

[CATRESERVE 248]

1 hour ago, Renegade08 said:

Regarding speed...I'm curious how many folks are getting stopped and ticketed, and how frequently!?!?  I'm a weekend warrior...have a vacation home in central NH...  And while I very often exceed the 45 MPH speed limits (my whole life...i'm 43 now) I've only been "caught" and stopped once or maybe twice.  With just a warning.  My point is, I ride over 45.  I use common sense and keep an eye...and the speed limit is NOT a deterrent for me to ride in NH.  I mean seriously..."I want to drive faster so I'm going to Maine"...  that sounds silly to me.  BUT maybe I'm in a minority here of being lucky and not having to face the consequences of going over 45.

LAND and riding areas.  This is a big problem.  I very much agree that legislation should consider working to find ways to allow off-trail access.  The demand won't go away.  If the only outcome is that folks go off trail regardless, pissing off land owners, then more and more trails will close and riding will become that much more difficult in the state.  Despite bigger issues in VT (keep reading below) I found it interesting last year when riding there once that we came upon a HUGE open meadow/field and there were signs marking it as a designated area to ride freely.  I thought it was genius...  why not get permission from owners/companies/state to designate various areas as safe.  Mark them on maps and post signs...  OK...that's way easier said than done.  But I agree with WideOpenOrNothing...  Rather than just always saying "Stay On Trail" and closing trails when people close their land...  why not take some actions to make some off trail riding permissible?

In the meantime, land closures are more inevitable.  And until rules change...if you really want to ride faster or go off-trail, then by all means go to Maine.  I could care less and I'll keep riding NH trails.  BUT the outcome of going off-trail in NH at the moment is far more impactful and detrimental than anything else. So STAY ON THE TRAIL!   I actually did ride with some buddies in northern VT last weekend, and there were multiple sections of trails where you had to ride the road for MILES to continue on the trails.  Luckily there was some coating of snow.  During a warm-up, these sections would be impassable!  The reason for those trails having to cross miles of public road...according to my group who are club groomers/volunteers there... land ownership/closures.  Someone closes their land down...and there's no other choice.

Lastly...northern migration is killing trails.  Every year, more and more people move a bit further north.  Once great riding areas in the southern or central part of the state, are getting thinned out as older generations die and sell off large plots of land for developers to come in and build housing..  "Flat landers" move in and could give a rats ass about keeping property open to allow snowmobiling...so trails get closed or very costly re-routes occur.  This won't change.

Thumbs up and well said.  And by the way...off trail is not legal in Maine!  It is also becoming a problem there as well.  Landowners and especially large landowner grow trees for a living...they FARM the land that they have by growing trees and producing wood products.  All off road vehicles can negatively effect that crop.   It really is no different than a crop farmer growing corn/hay whatever...if a wheeled vehicle/ horse/ mountain bike goes across his/her crop it effects his crop and his way of living to support himself/family. 

Just my .02!

[jhwentworth 307]

14 hours ago, WideOpenOrNothin said:

is there state land?

do you think the paper companies and other large parcel owners might be willing to offer sections. 

Or do we continue to lose more and more riders to the point where land owners aren’t needed because there’s no demand for trails. 

NH will be at 20k registrations with Vermont. 

There is a DEMAND for back country ALL ACROSS AMERICA! If you can provide it YOU ARE IN DEMAND. 

If you can’t, then we will continue to decline. 

Do you think that NH is different than the national average of 80%-90% of riding being done on trails? How many NH riders do you think want to ride off-trail?

I don't see any way that NH can compete with the large amount of uninhabited land  in northern Maine for off-trail riders.

[Skip 262]

That's it. That's my new excuse for my temporary hiatus. Can't go 80 on the trails.

Of course there's hundreds of bodies of water where I can stretch it out legally, and safely, if I need to scratch that itch.

But no 80 on the trails? Damn, I'm going to Maine!

LOL.......