NHSA Sno Traveler promoting ME sledding

[Bearcat250 5]

I started reading the Jan/Feb Sno-Traveler and a card fell out. The card was  about 3" x 5" and it was an advertisement for Northern Outdoors in The Forks Maine.  I thought that was interesting.

[rivercat 119]

Northern Outdoors is a PAID advertiser,,,  Im not sure thats the same as "promoting them" (or Maine)

[Bearcat250 5]

You are correct, it was a paid advertisement and I was a little over the top in my statement. But to me it just doesn't seem OK. Especially with NHSA putting on this big push to get the registration fee's to almost double. 

[rivercat 119]

 

First and foremost Thank You for bringing up the purposed registration increase here it provides for open discussion 

The NHSA is not going to make one cent on the increase. I want to be on the record that I was NOT FOR the increase at first,

 The intent of the increase is to provide clubs with a reimbursement per hour of grooming which is closer to "true operational cost" for each grooming hour. It is purposed to be a $54 increase of the current fee. This is closer to a 50% increase when you look at it from a "pre club member discount".

Upon pouring over the numbers, and remember they do not lie. The moratoriums on GIA grants in the last several years need to send us ALL a clear message that the current level of funding for trails is unable to maintain the trail system funding we have all come to enjoy.

The committee was made up of snowmobilers  including the Trails Bureau Chief all working together determined that the effort is to be able to disburse close to $2,000,000 additional annually to the clubs. YES it first sounds like a lot, but if you divide it by 106 clubs, the average is $20,000 per club, it is not huge money when construction, and groomer maintence/fuel  and periodic groomer replacement needs to be considered. The model being discussed will turn over to the clubs 100% ownership of their equipment. They will be able to buy, trade, swap equipment at will without the NH BOT having input on their acquisitions 

 As the old saying goes "If we are going to dance then WE must pay the fiddler"    

Edited January 22, 2019 by rivercat

[John Mercier 36]

5 hours ago, rivercat said:

 

First and foremost Thank You for bringing up the purposed registration increase here it provides for open discussion 

The NHSA is not going to make one cent on the increase. I want to be on the record that I was NOT FOR the increase at first,

 The intent of the increase is to provide clubs with a reimbursement per hour of grooming which is closer to "true operational cost" for each grooming hour. It is purposed to be a $54 increase of the current fee. This is closer to a 50% increase when you look at it from a "pre club member discount".

Upon pouring over the numbers, and remember they do not lie. The moratoriums on GIA grants in the last several years need to send us ALL a clear message that the current level of funding for trails is unable to maintain the trail system funding we have all come to enjoy.

The committee was made up of snowmobilers  including the Trails Bureau Chief all working together determined that the effort is to be able to disburse close to $2,000,000 additional annually to the clubs. YES it first sounds like a lot, but if you divide it by 106 clubs, the average is $20,000 per club, it is not huge money when construction, and groomer maintence/fuel  and periodic groomer replacement needs to be considered. The model being discussed will turn over to the clubs 100% ownership of their equipment. They will be able to buy, trade, swap equipment at will without the NH BOT having input on their acquisitions 

 As the old saying goes "If we are going to dance then WE must pay the fiddler"    

I usually try to do the math in a meaningful way. Since the last registration increase, the price has been $66 for a resident club-member. With a 25% inflation rate over what will roughly be a decade before implementation of the new rates, that would go to $82.50... then taking into account the decline in registrations from 60K to 40K would change that rate to about $123.75. Some of the other movements of funding aren't that obvious to riders that may be members of a club, but not have been involved heavily in the day-to-day operations.

 

[snorander 216]

Snowmobiling is now a rich mans/womans activity...Not only can I not afford a new sled, now I can barely afford to register what I have...and now they want to take away the vintage plates or cut off the year at 1995 as well (one year older than my sleds) great, just great, the only thing I had to look forward to looks like it will be taken away too....

Edited January 22, 2019 by snorander

[RK-SXViper 144]

7 minutes ago, snorander said:

Snowmobiling is now a rich mans/womans activity...Not only can I not afford a new sled, now I can barely afford to register what I have...and now the want to take away the vintage plates or cut off the year at 1995 as well (one year older than my sleds) great, just great, the only thing I had to look forward to looks like it will be taken away too....

Just get yourself a 95 sled and modify it to have the best suspension and any other new features you like and put a vintage plate on it. Older sled are all rebuildable and the newer sleds are basically disposibal anyway.

[snorander 216]

50 minutes ago, RK-SXViper said:

Just get yourself a 95 sled and modify it to have the best suspension and any other new features you like and put a vintage plate on it. Older sled are all rebuildable and the newer sleds are basically disposibal anyway.

Both of my sleds are 1996's.....Not buying anything older that's for sure LOL....They both have upgraded, skis and rear suspension....riding position still doesn't do my back & knees any favors

[rivercat 119]

2 hours ago, snorander said:

Snowmobiling is now a rich mans/womans activity...Not only can I not afford a new sled, now I can barely afford to register what I have...and now they want to take away the vintage plates or cut off the year at 1995 as well (one year older than my sleds) great, just great, the only thing I had to look forward to looks like it will be taken away too....

It isn't necessary to buy a new sled when the time comes nor new gear to go with it,,,, but in regard to not being able to "afford" another registration increase I ask this,,,,,, can we just sit by and watch clubs close down? We are in the process of losing a few each year! Is it far that volunteers use their own resources to keep groomers running to make the trails we all enjoy? lots of the time groomers are plugged in to an electrical outlet  to keep batteries tended and engine blocks warm adding to volunteers electric bill on a month basis, A $54 increase IS two tanks of gas,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT it is also $2,000,000 into the STATEWIDE trails/grooming fund! Yes priorities have to determine what are hobbies are and no one leaves the spot that isn't missed,,  for me the RIDE is maybe 30% of the fun,,,,, the MEMORIES are the other 70%!   Lastly as I look at it, its ALWAYS been a rich mans sport, like boating, skiing, golf, bicycling  and going to the games or concerts or vacation!!! NOTHING is cheep!

[CATRESERVE 248]

2 minutes ago, rivercat said:

It isn't necessary to buy a new sled when the time comes nor new gear to go with it,,,, but in regard to not being able to "afford" another registration increase I ask this,,,,,, can we just sit by and watch clubs close down? We are in the process of losing a few each year! Is it far that volunteers use their own resources to keep groomers running to make the trails we all enjoy? lots of the time groomers are plugged in to an electrical outlet  to keep batteries tended and engine blocks warm adding to volunteers electric bill on a month basis, A $54 increase IS two tanks of gas,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT it is also $2,000,000 into the STATEWIDE trails/grooming fund! Yes priorities have to determine what are hobbies are and no one leaves the spot that isn't missed,,  for me the RIDE is maybe 30% of the fun,,,,, the MEMORIES are the other 70%!   Lastly as I look at it, its ALWAYS been a rich mans sport, like boating, skiing, golf, bicycling  and going to the games or concerts or vacation!!! NOTHING is cheep!

CHEAP!  Spell Checker.

 

[rivercat 119]

30 minutes ago, CATRESERVE said:

CHEAP!  Spell Checker.

 

sorry Bruce my "peter" runned"  out of "a"s!!!

[rivercat 119]

9 hours ago, John Mercier said:

I usually try to do the math in a meaningful way. Since the last registration increase, the price has been $66 for a resident club-member. With a 25% inflation rate over what will roughly be a decade before implementation of the new rates, that would go to $82.50... then taking into account the decline in registrations from 60K to 40K would change that rate to about $123.75. Some of the other movements of funding aren't that obvious to riders that may be members of a club, but not have been involved heavily in the day-to-day operations.

 

A couple considerations John to consider, the last increase was ONLY a "bandaid" to try to buy time, financially we were "circling the drain" at the last increase and we have continued to be insolvent since that increase ,,,,

 

The second consideration is that trails, bridges, and grooming equipment STATEWIDE has greatly expanded to try to keep pace with the sport of snowmobiling,,,,,,, unfortunately the sport has morphed more rapidly then the users wish to pay,,  what ONCE was an 8-10 hour ride from my home is now a 2.5 hour ride,, and YES id rather pay the higher price in order to cover more QUALITY trail! I Clearly remember ALL my adventures on a sled being on my and my neighbors property,,,,,,, and THEN I made it to the corner store a half mile away,,,, those were AMAZING times!!!! 

Edited January 22, 2019 by rivercat

[RK-SXViper 144]

1 hour ago, rivercat said:

I ask this,,,,,, can we just sit by and watch clubs close down? We are in the process of losing a few each year!

Dave I respectfully disagree. Grooming $ is NOT what is killing clubs, lack of volunteers and members are what is killing clubs off. The volunteer mindset seems to be a thing of the past and its getting harder and harder to get volunteers to do the tasks needed to keep the trails and clubs open. If your looking to get enough $ into GIA to pay for all the currently volunteered services than you'd need to triple if not quadruple the registration cost. After talking to a few registration agents the number of people registering as non club members this year will give GIA a decent boost, but at the cost of a few more clubs. At what point does it all collapse onto itself? I think we're starting down a long and bumpy road!

[Skip 263]

55 minutes ago, RK-SXViper said:

Dave I respectfully disagree. Grooming $ is NOT what is killing clubs, lack of volunteers and members are what is killing clubs off. The volunteer mindset seems to be a thing of the past and its getting harder and harder to get volunteers to do the tasks needed to keep the trails and clubs open. If your looking to get enough $ into GIA to pay for all the currently volunteered services than you'd need to triple if not quadruple the registration cost. After talking to a few registration agents the number of people registering as non club members this year will give GIA a decent boost, but at the cost of a few more clubs. At what point does it all collapse onto itself? I think we're starting down a long and bumpy road!

Well said 'Vipe....couldn't agree more!

[rivercat 119]

3 hours ago, RK-SXViper said:

Dave I respectfully disagree. Grooming $ is NOT what is killing clubs, lack of volunteers and members are what is killing clubs off. The volunteer mindset seems to be a thing of the past and its getting harder and harder to get volunteers to do the tasks needed to keep the trails and clubs open. If your looking to get enough $ into GIA to pay for all the currently volunteered services than you'd need to triple if not quadruple the registration cost. After talking to a few registration agents the number of people registering as non club members this year will give GIA a decent boost, but at the cost of a few more clubs. At what point does it all collapse onto itself? I think we're starting down a long and bumpy road!

Well Rob then disagree it is, I NEVER indicated that the increase in funding was to "HIRE" people to do trails stuff....  heck in my own club we are still running one ALPINE ! Our NEW sled type groomer is a 17 year old Scandic,  there are some groomers out there that are pretty tired and aged.  REMEMBER with the current system it will take 62 years  (approx) with our current system to replace the current grooming fleet through the State!

[jhwentworth 307]

 

While looking at an old (mid-1980's) NH State Merrimack/Hillsborough County snowmobile map I found a list of 103 NHSA snowmobile clubs listed by county. Comparing that list with the current list from the NHSA site I see we now have 2 more clubs. Hillsborough County took the biggest hit, dropping from 15 to 8, while Rockingham County lost 3. The remaining counties have more snowmobile clubs then they had in the 1980's. Looking at the club names it's surprising how little has changed, with Belknap County having the same 6 snowmobile clubs going back 30+ years. If you remove Rockingham and Hillsborough counties from the lists there's been a gain of 8 clubs over roughly 30 years. I don't know what can be done about the urbanization of southern NH that would allow clubs to keep their trail systems, but for the more rural counties they're at least holding their own while delivering a much better product.

One other point is that a 1985 dollar would be equal to $2.33 under current purchasing power.

Edited January 22, 2019 by jhwentworth

[RK-SXViper 144]

10 minutes ago, jhwentworth said:

 

While looking at an old (mid-1980's) NH State Merrimack/Hillsborough County snowmobile map I found a list of 103 NHSA snowmobile clubs listed by county. Comparing that list with the current list from the NHSA site I see we now have 2 more clubs. Hillsborough County took the biggest hit, dropping from 15 to 8, while Rockingham County lost 3. The remaining counties have more snowmobile clubs then they had in the 1980's. Looking at the club names it's surprising how little has changed, with Belknap County having the same 6 snowmobile clubs going back 30+ years. If you remove Rockingham and Hillsborough counties from the lists there's been a gain of 8 clubs over roughly 30 years. I don't know what can be done about the urbanization of southern NH that would allow clubs to keep their trail systems, but for the more rural counties they're at least holding their own.

Trails aren't the issue, its the volunteers needed to maintain the system that is the issue and $ isn't the answer to that problem

Edited January 22, 2019 by RK-SXViper

[jhwentworth 307]

24 minutes ago, RK-SXViper said:

Trails aren't the issue, its the volunteers needed to maintain the system that is the issue and $ isn't the answer to that problem

I was just pointing out that a commonly held belief that snowmobile clubs are failing doesn't seem to be valid, except in densely populated Hillsborough and Rockingham counties.As to why some clubs flourish and others fail, it beats me. Do those 6 Belknap County clubs have a special power to attract volunteers? Grafton County gained 3 clubs , and so did Cheshire County. 

Is there a current publicly available list of club memberships? Do we know what clubs are gaining membership and what clubs are losing members? Does having more members always reflect better trail systems, or do more members sometimes just mean a good marketing plan? Is there a strong correlation between more members and more volunteers, and if there isn't, how do you create it? Do you know a club that has established a strong group of volunteers? What are they doing right?

Edited January 22, 2019 by jhwentworth

[nhgator 89]

One of the other biggest hurdles is the lack of snow below the notches,not everyone wants to Buck up and truck up to dodge everyone else on crowded trails.

What in the not too distant past was a 8-10 plus week season is now maybe 6 weeks at best it seems,not sure how much riding I get in anymore will justify a huge increase when I can sit on the couch and order car parts for something I get to actually use.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by nhgator

[snorander 216]

11 hours ago, nhgator said:

One of the other biggest hurdles is the lack of snow below the notches,not everyone wants to Buck up and truck up to dodge everyone else on crowded trails.

What in the not too distant past was a 8-10 plus week season is now maybe 6 weeks at best it seems,not sure how much riding I get in anymore will justify a huge increase when I can sit on the couch and order car parts for something I get to actually use.

 

True! I have been snowmobiling my whole life (48 years) and I have never been to Pittsburg, in fact I have only ridden above the notches once. Some winters are great and some are non existent, but my stuff is paid for so it's no big deal if it sits. I usually don't register my main sled till December, and my other sled only gets registered If it is needed. With the cost of registration nearly doubling I will most likely not register till there is enough snow on the ground for me to ride. I am sure I am not the only one either. Don't get me started on the NHSA spending time and resources raising money for another non profit. Yes, I know it is good pr and a good cause, but it is time, focus and fund raising that isn't going to snowmobiling. Maybe I'm just a dick who doesn't get it, I don't have the answers that is for sure.

[rivercat 119]

2 hours ago, snorander said:

True! I have been snowmobiling my whole life (48 years) and I have never been to Pittsburg, in fact I have only ridden above the notches once. Some winters are great and some are non existent, but my stuff is paid for so it's no big deal if it sits. I usually don't register my main sled till December, and my other sled only gets registered If it is needed. With the cost of registration nearly doubling I will most likely not register till there is enough snow on the ground for me to ride. I am sure I am not the only one either. Don't get me started on the NHSA spending time and resources raising money for another non profit. Yes, I know it is good pr and a good cause, but it is time, focus and fund raising that isn't going to snowmobiling. Maybe I'm just a dick who doesn't get it, I don't have the answers that is for sure.

Steve its TOTALLY EASY to "argue the merits of camp Sno-Mo from the outside looking inward,,,  I could easily join you on this topic ,,,,, HOWEVER you may want to take the time this Saturday eve to go to the Andover Pasta Buffet  (at the Middle school)  and take a gander at the way in which everyone pulls together for a common goal,,,,,,, the meal easily fits YOUR budget/price range (jk-jk)   bring a 20 to buy some raffle tickets for a tons of prizes they have ,,,, REMEMBER to take a hard look at how this brings community together,,, and provides a imesureable service to families that have a child that couldn't do camp otherwise!!!!!! You missed Warners last Saturday, and Canterbury the Saturday before!   hope to see you there!!!!   

[mbeaunh 11]

Why surrender and accept sled registrations cannot increase?  How about pushing FAMILY in NH snowmobiling?  The 850s and Sidewinders are amazing, videos of off-trail riding are fun to watch and I’d love to do it (in Montana), but such developments are not going to increase participation in any significant way.  Look at the vintage commercials for sled and you’ll it was all about getting the family out together; look at new commercials and all you see are the top models driven by professional riders going 70+ and or sailing 20-30 of a jump.  How are those advertisements going to convince your wife the family should drop BIG dollars for sleds, tow vehicle, clothing, and all the other incidental costs? It won’t!  Perception matters.

Less families mean a lost opportunity to add big numbers of registered sleds and potential volunteers for clubs.  BOT and F&G could even designate certain areas family friendly on certain weekends so people wouldn’t have to worry—as much—about some clown blowing a corner at 60 mph and hitting you or your kids head on…and the speed addicts would know where to avoid.  50 miles of riding with the wife and young kids riding is good day, and the family areas could be easily designated by the local club.

There should be a state and retailer effort pushing the family aspect snowmobiling (why Snow Traveler last year had a SnowTrax story about the growth off-trial riding still mystifies me, it’s interesting from a very general standpoint of the overall sport, but it clearly isn’t the future of snowmobiling in NH).  Dad can still get his 850 (and have days getting big miles with the guys) while retailers get more sales on entry level sleds, more sled maintenance and apparel sales opportunities, and the state and clubs win too.  The Youtube video that was released when Yamaha reintroduced the Snow Scoot last year is the perfect example of what I mean regarding the emphasis on family.  Polaris has its new Evo which targets families and growing riding skills. Even aside from new sleds, there are so many capable, reliable older sleds that are well suited to families and family riding, but it has to make sense, on many levels, for more families to get involved to see any sustained growth, i.e., the perception of snowmobiling as a true family activity needs to be fostered .  

If the current plan is to simply increase costs more and more on fewer and fewer riders while losing trails, then the comment above about the sport swirling down the drain is accurate.

[nhgator 89]

"If the current plan is to simply increase costs more and more on fewer and fewer riders while losing trails, then the comment above about the sport swirling down the drain is accurate."

 

I grew up in a family of 4 kids,3 of whom grew up to be snowmobilers.I have 4 kids,none of them give a hoot about sleds,my sister has one son who used to ride and my other sister and late brother did not produce any sledders either,Less riders=Less reg money.

•  

[WideOpenOrNothin 13]

Lol, Hmmmm where have I heard this before....

The NH Snowmobile industry is hurting, Registration are down 10k. THERE’S ONLY ONE SOLUTION.    

MORE TAXATION!!! Yaaaaayyyyyyyy

I have a proposal. 1 proposal that is a sure winner. I’ll give you one hint before I type it

Hint: It’s not the theft of more of my money..

Ok- here it is:

Drop the ridiculous out dated 45 mph speed limit.  You want people to pay $150 a sled and then $150 a ticket for going 51mph. 

Its a joke, no one wants to ride in NH because they know they’ll get a ticket. More and more people are regjstering in Maine every year because NH is still stuck in the 50’s man. 

Wow, people will come right back to NH, registration numbers will climb. Local business gets more consumers, maybe registrations drop because of the influx. Who knows. Taxation and regulation is what is killing NH  if this hike happens NH snowmobiling is done

I have plenty of more ideas and opinions if you want to wind me up and see where it take us. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by WideOpenOrNothin

[jhwentworth 307]

"From F&Gs John Wimsat in the NHSA Spring 2015 Sno Traveler: "To date CO’s have issued over 250 summonses and over 250 warnings this winter for violations of snowmobile and OHRV laws and rules." These numbers reflect the 2014-2015 season ending 3/15/2015. I'd assume that snowmobile violations would make up the bulk of the winter's total.He also commented on the number of speeding tickets handed out: "I often get asked about NH’s aggressive speed enforcement. Yes, we take it seriously to help keep the trails safe, but keep in mind that about .003% of the registered sleds out there get a ticket for speed." If there are about 45,000 registered sleds then that would yield 1.35 speeding tickets, so I think a decimal place has been misplaced somewhere or he didn't mean to use a "%" symbol. The number 135 sounds about right, as that would be about half of the tickets."

Is the 45 mph speed limit out of date? Maybe.

Is NH funding its state government on snowmobile speeding tickets? No.

So, in the Spring of 2015 the F&G reported a total of 250 summons being written, at $200 a pop that would be $50,000, at $100 it would be $25,000. That's not a serious amount of money and would amount to a few hundred registrations.