Fish & Game Hearing 4/4/18 Question of Restraint of Trade and Creating a Monopoly?

[WINNOCTURN 60]

Fish & Game Hearing 4/4/18

Question of NHSA SELLING "VD" NUMBERS for $12.00 each!

I consider what F&G and NHSA constitutes a Restraint of Trade.

What is Restraint of Trade and Creating a Monopoly?

Restraint of trade is an economic injury that involves interfering with another person’s ability to do business freely.  Restraint of trade is part of antitrust law, but the topic covers a wide range of activities, including:

• tortious interference with a contract or business agreement that negatively affects someone else’s ability to do business freely.

•  

• forcing or coercing someone to quit doing business or to change their business so as not to compete in the market;
• agreeing to fix prices to drive other competitors out of business;
• creating a monopoly;
• using noncompete clauses or other contract provisions to keep someone out of business;
• tortious interference with a contract or business agreement that negatively affects someone else’s ability to do business freely.
•  

• In short, a “restraint of trade” is any activity that hinders someone else from doing business in the way that he would normally do it if there were no restraints.  While federal, state, and local governments can pass laws and regulations that create obstacles for certain kinds of businesses, it is generally considered improper for individuals to restrain one another’s trade in certain ways.  Someone who loses business or suffers another injury may have a tort case against another individual whose trade-restraining behavior injured him.

 

Creating a Monopoly

• The establishment, maintenance or use of monopoly power, or any attempt to establish, maintain or use monopoly power over trade or commerce for the purpose of affecting competition or controlling, fixing or maintaining prices is unlawful.

•  

• Question to Fish and Game/NHSA

Restraint of Trade and Creating a Monopoly?

Going forth will we be able to conduct Business as we have in the past?

1: Fixing a price for an Validation Number $12.00

Cost of Number $10.00 Processing FEE $2.00

It was always FREE as part of a Membership in a Club by way of a Club Membership Card or Membership Certificate.

Restraint of Trade:

Our Club has 3 sources of generating Memberships.

1: Annual Mail Out to all members of the past Season.

2: Sales Agents. We have 3 local Agents that Sell our Membership. We provide them with our Club Applications. The Application has one of our Membership Cards attached. The application is coded showing who the Agent is, i.e. DaSilva DSL, EM Heath EMH and Skelly’s Market SKL. The Application has the corresponding Membership Card ID Number printed on it. We dedicate a specific series of Card Numbers to each Agent.

We started in 2015 after NHSA STOPED sending NHSA Membership Cards to its Member Clubs.

We designed our own Membership Card and had 1500 printed and ready to go for the 2016 Season. You knew you were a Member of the Moultonboro Snowmobile Club!

3: In 2017 we added an Online Membership Page. You now can Join the Club, Printout a Membership Certificate, order Club Maps and Decals. Pay by Credit Card or PayPal.

Our Membership Cards and Certificates are accepted a PROOF of MEMBERSHIP by any of the numerous Registration Agents in the Area.

With what I have Stated I believe we will no longer be able generate Membership in our Club as we have in the Past.

Whatever happed end to YOU HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A CLUB THAT IS A MEMBER (in good standing) of NHSA to be eligible for the $30.00 Registration Discount?

Every CLUB is in the BUSINESS of SELLING Membership! Without Members there is no Club!

George Higgins

Membership Chairman

Moultonboro Snowmobile Club.

(Email: winnocturn1@gmail.com)

(See page 2 for description of Restraint of Trade)

 

Fish & Game  HQ Concord 6:30 pm 4/4/18 (tonight!) 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by WINNOCTURN

[pekabu 35]

I would love to hear what when on at last nights meeting.  I wasn't able to make it. 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

I am on  the way out for the afternoon, but reply when I get back .

I wish every Club would have a Rep at the Lancaster Meeting!

Biggest question and concern , NHSA Sales and ownership of Selling and Pricing of Validation Numbers.

I finally got a copy of the Audit that MAGER WIZMAT used to justify taking and giving NHSA Control.

Highlight of the Audit was they found the MISSING REGISTRAION DECALS IN THE CLEANING CLOSIT! A lot of $$$$$$ involved!

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by WINNOCTURN

[WINNOCTURN 60]

This a brief breakdown of what has been happening

 

Going forth will we be able to conduct Business as we have in the past?

Validation Numbers?

Fish And Game has given NHSA total control of what maybe the only Validation Number ACCEPTED for Registering a Snowmobile. They have also given NHSA cart blanch on the pricing $$$$$$$$ of the VD Numbers with no over-site from Fish and Game.

Club generated Membership ID Numbers you have on our Membership Cards and Membership Certificate used on our online Webpage may no longer be valid. We may have to prepay NHSA for blocks of VD Numbers to continue issuing Membership Cards and Certificates?

Our Club has 3 sources of generating Memberships.

1: Annual Mail Out to all members of the past Season.

2: Sales Agents. We have 3 local Agents that Sell our Membership. We provide them with our Club Applications. The Application has one of our Membership Cards attached.

3: In 2017 we added an Online Membership Page. You now can Join the Club, Printout a Membership Certificate, order Club Maps and Decals. Pay by Credit Card or PayPal.

Our Membership Cards and Certificates are accepted a PROOF of MEMBERSHIP by any of the numerous Registration Agents in the Area.

With what I have Stated I believe we will may no longer be able generate Membership in our Club as we have in the Past.

Whatever happened to YOU HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A CLUB THAT IS A MEMBER (in good standing) of NHSA to be eligible for the $30.00 Registration Discount?

I has asked NHSA Director Dan Gould if we would be paying an additional FEE for the Validation Number or would “Free” as part of the normal $10.0 NHSA Membership. He would not give me an answer and had a little hisyifit and told me I should contact my local District Director Dan Foote first.

I did. I sent Dan an e-mail asking about the Validation Number and he replied he had no knowledge of the Validation numbers or the Cost.

I will be going Tuesday to a second Meeting in Lancaster to continue this matter with Fish and Game.

 

If there any Clubs concerned about this no matter what County your are it would serve you well to be there!

Tuesday April 10th 6:30pm Lancaster F&G Office. NO OVER-SITE of the PRICING of the Validation (ID NUMBERS)NHSA=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

As a side note NHSA has just come out with new Bylaws and Business Procedure ordered by the Attorney General.

One of the changes proposed is a new formula for the Number of Delegate a Club gets at the Annual Meeting. It is not a good sign ware NHSA heading. Example Pittsburgh has 36 Delegates and by the new formula may have only 8 next year.

I have more on the Audit that Major Wimsatt used to say there was a problem with Club Generated ID Numbers, Numerous error in validating when used to Register a Sled.

After a year or more I finally got a copy. I  have read it "six ways to Sunday" and there is not bit of Statistical Data in the Audit to back up his Claim!

80% of the Audit dealt with Physical Control of the Registration Decals, One incident quoted was that of a missing package of Decals. The mystery was solved when they were found in a CLEANING CLOSET.

George Higgins

Membership Chairman

Moultonboro Snowmobile Club.

Edited April 8, 2018 by WINNOCTURN
OLD AGE, I just had another Birthday! Can someone tell me what day it is?

[RK-SXViper 144]

Let me start off by saying that i'm NOT anti NHSA or NHOVA. One of my concerns is the part about requiring a validation # from NHSA and NHOVA, I don't think either of these entities should be specified in the rules. What happens if one of these entities goes under but the clubs are still functioning? The clubs could survive, it would be very challenging but could happen. So I'd like to see the language referencing NHSA and NHOVA removed and replaced with "a state recognized non profit snowmobile / ATV club or association" or something to that effect. I'm really surprised the F&G lawyers that put this together specifically referenced two non profit agencies that they have no control of.

Using an NHSA or NHOVA validation # will not fix the problem with the F&G registration system. The system itself needs to be fixed so it will only accept a number once, currently you can enter a number multiple times and it doesn't matter where the # comes from (NHSA or NHOVA # can be entered multiple times for different people). The system is so flawed that when you register a used sled it can't transfer the machines details from the previous owner, the machines VIN # (provided by the mfr and is unique) means nothing. You can currently register multiple sleds under the same VIN # to different people, which to me is a MUCH bigger issue.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by RK-SXViper

[John Mercier 36]

Such a language change would result in problems for tracking purposes, and entail a lot more changes than you are suggesting. The F&G does not have a specific lawyer... the AG covers them; and the F&G did not put the language together.

The language is a result of the NHSA starting the process and the legislative process. The Legislature simply copied the language for NHOHVA that it had in statute for the NHSA. 

The problem was that the clubs did not want to put out effort to get memberships; and higher up, the Associations did not want to put out efforts to get memberships. Now the problem is that clubs do not want to have the same shared cost of the associations as other clubs. So larger clubs are looking for more influence in the associations, while looking for a lower cost than other clubs for the influence.

The easiest way to think of it is in comparison to the Canadian/Vermont systems.

But NH is trying to do it within its registration system, and govt controls.

 

If either of the associations cease to exist... we simply return to the old system, where every registrant pays the same amount regardless of affiliation. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by John Mercier

[smthopr8r 24]

Sooooo where are we now after the 4/4 meeting with F&G?  Do we need to once again figure out how to proceed with membership business moving forward ?  Its getting old trying to come up with a new solution every time the association tries to push there agenda. Why not concentrate on unifying the association and clubs and stop pushing the issue of ultimate control over everything.

[WINNOCTURN 60]

10 hours ago, smthopr8r said:

Sooooo where are we now after the 4/4 meeting with F&G?  Do we need to once again figure out how to proceed with membership business moving forward ?  Its getting old trying to come up with a new solution every time the association tries to push there agenda. Why not concentrate on unifying the association and clubs and stop pushing the issue of ultimate control over everything.

As I emphasized earlier F&G agreed when asked, they replied, Yes it is an Administrative Rule. What this means anyone and everyone, once the Date of the JLCAR Hearing must prepare there thoughts why this is a BAD Rule and be present at the JLCAR Hearing and help make our CASE!

"WE" are working every angle we can think of!

I asked F&G if they knew of any Friendly Legislators that would help us change the RSA and get the mention of NHSA off it. There was a little chuckle.

I keep repeating You must be a Member of a CLUB that is a (member in good standing with NHAS) to qualify for the $30.00 Discount!

Another option voiced, which at this I maybe could go for, is get ride of the dam Discount! Some days it really sounds like a good idea!

Has anyone tried to do a one to one comparison the OHRV Association and NHSA. Or thy both the same?

Edited April 9, 2018 by WINNOCTURN

[John Mercier 36]

We are both the same in the area of the RSA because the language for RSA was simply reused.

And as far as I know, they have the same problem... though maybe not as evolved.

The two problems that I noted existing during my longstanding position as NHOHVA President was what the Association should be doing and how the Association should cover the costs of what it should be doing.

I focused on cutting costs. But at that time, every affiliated club paid NHOHVA five dollars per member.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ljgomes 77]

NHOHVA has no problem at all.  We changed the bylaws last year.  When a rider joins a club, they can also join NHOHVA for free by checking a box on the registration form and NHOHVA gives the voucher numbers to the clubs for free.

The club controls what their membership fee is and contributes $10 to NHOHVA for each member that joins their club.  As the total number of members goes up, the amount per member goes down.  Each year, the clubs vote on the NHOHVA budget.  Once the budget is approved, the budget amount is divided by the total number of members to determine the amount per member.  The more members, the lower the amount per member.

Its a very simple system and prevents the runaway spending that is happening at NHSA.  Also because each club has one vote, they have much more of a say in what goes on.

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by ljgomes

[John Mercier 36]

Not really. 

As I stated same problems... less evolved.

The simplest way to see it is imagine NHOHVA using the more older NHSA system.

Instead of each member having a direct input and vote at the annual meeting... direct democracy by participation... it would fall to the delegate model that evolved in the NHSA over time. Members would no longer have direct democracy by participation, but would have representative democracy by participation.

Instead of each club having a single representative to the board, it would again fall to the NHSA model that evolved over time to a single director for each county. For NHOHVA this would mean that instead of ten delegates, with a back-up assistant, there would be fewer than ten due to some counties have no clubs... some clubs having their own director because they are the only club in the county... and a county like Coos only having one director to be shared by all of those clubs.

It would focus influence in a manner that evolved over time in the NHSA, but fails to work.

Same thing happens with spending. A majority of the clubs can determine that they ''need'' something that really has no positive long term affect on the community. The NHSA has just had thirty more years of ''groupthink'' to convince itself that a community that is focused on trails through the woods and fields of NH needed an office, executive director, and snail mail.

 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

SIT BACK AND WAITE!

The 2 Hearings have been held, Concord and Lancaster.

Of 102 Clubs, maybe 25 Clubs were represented at one or the other Meetings.

Comments closed yesterday 4/18/18 at 4:00pm.

We are faced with possibly only 2 avenues to proceed on.

1: JLCAR (JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE ON ADMINISTRATIVE RULES)

Because this is an "ADMINISTRATIVE RULE" it has to be moved on by JLCAR. We, the everyday Snowmobiler, have the ability to express our opinions on this matter and make a difference as to its' outcome.

2: CONSUMEER COMPLAINT

A CONSUMEER COMPLAINT base on Restraint of Trade. That being F&G giving NHSA complete control of the issuing of Validation Numbers and the cost of said Number with absolutely NO OVERSITE of How and to Who Numbers are issued plus the Cost of these Numbers by FISH and Game.

Where do you get VD Numbers for your Club Membership Cards, Sell Your Membership Applications at you local Membership Agent and Your ONLINE Membership Webpage Certificate of Membership. 

3: OPTING OUT OF NHSA?

There is one Pearson who, at this time, is totally left out of this process. That is the PERSON who opts out of joining NHSA.

YOU MUST BE A "MEMBER OF A CLUB THAT IS A MEMBER OF NHSA" TO QUALIFY FOR THE DISCOUNTED PRICE!!!

I AM PERSUING THIS QUESTION AS  F&G NEVER REALY GAVE US AN ANSWER ON IT.

 

  

 

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by WINNOCTURN
I can not feel my fingertips anymore

[jhwentworth 307]

1. JLCAR: It would take a large number of people to influence this process as the legislature tends to listen to state agencies and recognized organizations.

2. Consumer complaint: This would go to the AG's office, and the AG is already well aware of the moves being made by NHSA.

3. Opting out of NHSA: Probably the most workable option. If you don't like the NHSA this will hurt them and the clubs will still receive funds, but collectively, not a specific club. Some clubs might like that, some might not. As for the discount on sled registrations, the discount equals about 10 gallons of high-test gas, and for a single-sled registration it's cheaper to not join most clubs. At some point (now?), the club discount needs to be looked at. I suspect that the discount helps some clubs, but not all clubs.Has any club ever polled their members regarding "the discount" ?

[Bearcat250 5]

12 hours ago, jhwentworth said:

1. JLCAR: It would take a large number of people to influence this process as the legislature tends to listen to state agencies and recognized organizations.

 

Several years ago I testified at a JLCAR hearing. NH Div of W&M were requesting rule changes which put a financial burden on my employer. I had the proper documents to back my position and the rule changes were denied. I was the only one testifying against the rule changes. The committee will listen to you and make a fair decision. From what I heard at my last club meeting I think there's a good chance these rule changes will not be accepted if contested at JLCAR. Just my opinion. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Bearcat250

[rivercat 119]

I do know this to be fact,

The revised/purposed by laws were drawn up by the efforts of a “team”  The team had much input and guidance from the Office of the “AG” as well as legal counsel. 

In the spirit of writing by-laws for ANY non profit, consideration must be exercised has to how the bylaws will carry the organization going FORWARD in the years or even decades to come. 

When an “AG” representative came to the NHSA office to answer questions to the NHSA County directors my personal “take away” from the q&a presentation was that the format and directive of the existing by laws was QUITE IN NEED OF A REWRITE. 

I did gather that to office of the “AG” not only stands behind the purposed by-laws but had considerable input into the new format. 

I do hope and ask that each delegate LISTEN CAREFULLY as the introduction of the new by-laws are explained to the room. 

 

[RK-SXViper 144]

1 hour ago, rivercat said:

I do know this to be fact,

The revised/purposed by laws were drawn up by the efforts of a “team”  The team had much input and guidance from the Office of the “AG” as well as legal counsel. 

In the spirit of writing by-laws for ANY non profit, consideration must be exercised has to how the bylaws will carry the organization going FORWARD in the years or even decades to come. 

When an “AG” representative came to the NHSA office to answer questions to the NHSA County directors my personal “take away” from the q&a presentation was that the format and directive of the existing by laws was QUITE IN NEED OF A REWRITE. 

I did gather that to office of the “AG” not only stands behind the purposed by-laws but had considerable input into the new format. 

I do hope and ask that each delegate LISTEN CAREFULLY as the introduction of the new by-laws are explained to the room. 

 

Wrong place to post! This discussion is about F&G rules not NHSA bylaws

[rivercat 119]

1 hour ago, RK-SXViper said:

Wrong place to post! This discussion is about F&G rules not NHSA bylaws

Well MAYBE I’m speaking out of turn but in trying to read between the lines I was hearing some contention over the 12 digit requirement,,, 

some of the F&G Changes do “dovetail” with NHSA’s purposed changes ,,, 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

1 hour ago, rivercat said:

Well MAYBE I’m speaking out of turn but in trying to read between the lines I was hearing some contention over the 12 digit requirement,,, 

some of the F&G Changes do “dovetail” with NHSA’s purposed changes ,,, 

Dave,

The problem is not a 12 Digit Number.

It is how CLUBS generate Memberships! What we got out of attending the 2 Informational Hearings that F&G held is the NHSA has FULL Control of disseminating and setting the cost of the "VD" Numbers (with out ANY over-site). As it stands now NHSA is the only source that F&G will accept to Register a Sled irregardless of any Lower Priced Registration Cost.

$30.00 Discount? There is no dollar amount stated in the RSA. It appears to be the difference between the Price set by F&G between a Member of a Club and a NON-Member of a Club. It seam it always ends up at a $30.00 difference? 

 

Some people are/were under the impression that EVERYONE was a member of NHSA. Not really.

This move by  F&G has totally left the "MEMBER of a CLUB that is a MEMBER of NHSA" with no way to get the lower cost of Registering a Snowmobile as the RSA state he has the RIGHT to do.

YOU HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A CLUB THAT IS A MEMBER OF NHSA. Not a Member of NHSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does the meaning of the RSA no longer apply?

Case in point only 90 out of 500 Member of a Club when given the option to join or not joined NHSA?

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by WINNOCTURN

[rivercat 119]

George, one way to try to see it is maybe looking from a slightly different angle ,, 

Your ELECTED County Director and his peers have the oversight and the final vote on every topic. 

NHSA is an OFFICE where your County directors that are fully ( if not more) passionate about not ONLY our sport but the FUTURE of our sport meet. 

It’s my OWN wish that SOMEDAY people would realize that we ARE in this TOGETHER and as I always said to my kids “ I  (WE) AM (ARE) NOT THE ENEMY “ 

“There are multiple moving parts and not everything is always as it appears”, it true throughout life !!!

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by rivercat

[WINNOCTURN 60]

3 hours ago, rivercat said:

George, one way to try to see it is maybe looking from a slightly different angle ,, 

Your ELECTED County Director and his peers have the oversight and the final vote on every topic. 

NHSA is an OFFICE where your County directors that are fully ( if not more) passionate about not ONLY our sport but the FUTURE of our sport meet. 

It’s my OWN wish that SOMEDAY people would realize that we ARE in this TOGETHER and as I always said to my kids “ I  (WE) AM (ARE) NOT THE ENEMY “ 

“There are multiple moving parts and not everything is always as it appears”, it true throughout life !!!

 

Dave,

I have always thought of you as an "outsider" and that is good. You are your own man when it comes to a lot of NHSA matters.

As you can see this is an outright TRASHING of the RSA by FISH and GAME. MEMBER OF A CLUB THAT IS A MEMBER OF NHSA! NOT A MEMBER OF NHSA!

Again where does the "Member of a CLUB" (NOT NHSA) go to get HIS or HER Reduced Price REGISTRATION?

Hopefully when "WE" get to the JLCAR they will see the basic simplicity of our argument.

There needs to be a way for Clubs to continue being able to generate MEMBERSHIP through a multi tiered system, Agent Applications/Online Memberships, as we, MSC, presently have. How do any of the similar Clubs obtain Validation Numbers from NHSA a head of time to supply those formats. Close to 60% of our Memberships this Season from these 2 Sources. We are talking 380 Members. Would we have put up almost $4000.00 to get those "VD" Numbers?

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by WINNOCTURN

[John Mercier 36]

''

''Again where does the "Member of a CLUB" (NOT NHSA) go to get HIS or HER Reduced Price REGISTRATION?''- The answer would be a club that has followed the rules of the NHSA to be an affiliated member.

I think what you are trying to state is the NHSA can not set its club dues based on membership of that club... but since it sets its delegate representation based on membership of that club; I think that would be a hard argument to win.

F&G will defer to the NHSA to determine which clubs are affiliated members... because only the NHSA can determine such legally. Just as if the RSA state ''GIA-eligible clubs'' F&G would need to defer to the BoT to legally determine which clubs are GIA-eligible. 

As for getting memberships through agents and on-line...

The system doesn't allow you to take an on-line membership and then enter it into the NHSA app and return the number to the applicant? 

The system doesn't allow a dealer to enter the NHSA app and sign-up a member for a specific snowmobile club (per the purchaser's request) and provide them with the number?

 

 

[jhwentworth 307]

2 hours ago, John Mercier said:

'Again where does the "Member of a CLUB" (NOT NHSA) go to get HIS or HER Reduced Price REGISTRATION?''- The answer would be a club that has followed the rules of the NHSA to be an affiliated member.

I think what you are trying to state is the NHSA can not set its club dues based on membership of that club... but since it sets its delegate representation based on membership of that club; I think that would be a hard argument to win.

In the proposed "Rules of Business" under Dues, it states "Annual dues shall be $30. In addition, member clubs shall be assessed $10 per club membership transaction."

What is the meaning of "club membership transaction"? Is it all members of a club? Is it all club members that belong to the NHSA? Can I be a member of a club and not have any connection to the NHSA that would require a transaction with them? Is this $10 connected to a discounted registration? When NHSA allocates delegates do NHSA members and non-NHSA members both count? The proposed BY-Laws state that "Delegates from the member clubs of the NHSA allowed to vote must have been a club member registered in the NHSA database on or before March 1'st of that year." So, are clubs members who are not members of the NHSA  registered in the NHSA database? (does being in the database imply NHSA membership?) If I'm not an NHSA member, will my club membership count towards the delegate allocation?

There are rules and by-laws, and there are interpretations of rules and by-laws, and sometimes the interpretation can make all the difference.

[John Mercier 36]

My guess is that an affiliated club will pay $30 per year in dues and $10 for each entry for a discount code.

[RK-SXViper 144]

Its quickly getting to the point where the $30 discount isn't even worth it. A lot of clubs are at $35 for dues, so for the person registering a single sled it costs less to register as a non club member. $30 into GIA or $35 to a club. Either way the sport wins but it sucks that the two groups that make it all happen (clubs and BOT) are competing for the money. I'm starting to think this whole system sucks and needs an overhaul

[rivercat 119]

Rob  BEFORE you throw in the towel ,, can I ask did you ever ride a NEW sled that cost less than  $1000 ?? 

Did you ride it PRE GROOMING days??

sleds have “morphed” 

grooming has “morphed”

our members EXPECTATIONS have “morphed” 

gear has “morphed” 

New sleds under $10,000 are getting more “rare” 

the WORST change I’ve seen in my 50 years ?  Is the lack of people pulling TOGETHER with time, resources, and EVEN MONEY ,,, to make it all work !

on a positive note there ARE GREAT people working to make it stick ,,, but we can always use more,,,,,