Formal Complaint Filed Against the NHSA

[Skip 263]

As attached below, a formal complaint has been filed against the NHSA and an investigation is in progress. I stumbled across tis while researching another subject.

Raises some interesting questions:

Obviously, what is the nature of this complaint.

As you can see by the search range, this is the first "formal" complaint filed here since 2006. Earlier this year Presidents were told a "formal" complaint had been filed and nothing had come of it. Why the confusion or misinformation?

Have the Club presidents been duly informed of this complaint and how much it may cost to dispute whatever the issue is?

Have things changed in Tilton with the new leadership, or is this a sign that the more things change, the more they remain the same?

Hopefully someone (Dave) out there may be able to fill in some of the blanks!

 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

Skip,

Did you just let the "CAT" out of the BAG?

Call Roger, he might be able enlighten you on what this is all about.

George

 

 

 

[ICG 8]

Skip....

 

 

If  you can hide the issue and   blow enough smoke the  problem  just  goes away   !

 

 

 

[rivercat 119]

I can say that there has been nothing brought to the boards attention as of this date.

I want to also point out the date on the pictured complaint is SEPT 30th 2016  Just over 3 weeks ago .

I am sure that the general membership which can be as many as 24,000 will NOT be involved with the follow thru with the complaint,

I do not know how long it is from the TIME a complaint is FILED and is in "progress" by the office of the NH AG  and the NHSA be informed

I am sure the office of the AG has due process to follow.  And perhaps the NHSA office is yet to receive  a notice/complaint from the Ag's office

Lets all agree  that internet can provide a very open view of what is happening , both good and bad,,,, and this is bound to create havoc at times with members knowing FACTS before the NHSA office,  life was not this way 10 years ago,  things continue to change for sure! 

My recommendation is to allow enough time for the complaint to REACH  the office and then come before the board to be heard.

In fairness I'd think its reasonable to allow BOTH the Office of the AG and the NHSA to have communication before members begin "kicking the hornets nest"

I liken it to our sport, sleds have changed, (LOTS)  trail development has had to morph , grooming equipment has had to change to keep up , and rider expectations have  changed dramatically.

nothing stays the same,,,,,,

But thanks for the heads up!!!!!!

[Skip 263]

Thanks for the quick response Dave.

The complaint was opened nearly a month ago. I find it extremely hard to believe, knowing how the AG's office works, that no one at the NHSA is aware of this investigation. More disturbing, that you, as a Director, once again learn of a major issue not from the Office but by an internet posting. It will be interesting to see, as this plays out, who knew what when!

As I said previously....the more things change, the more they remain the same.

This one is going to be very interesting!

 

[Freedom Rider 209]

10 hours ago, Skip said:

Thanks for the quick response Dave.

The complaint was opened nearly a month ago. I find it extremely hard to believe, knowing how the AG's office works, that no one at the NHSA is aware of this investigation. More disturbing, that you, as a Director, once again learn of a major issue not from the Office but by an internet posting. It will be interesting to see, as this plays out, who knew what when!

As I said previously....the more things change, the more they remain the same.

This one is going to be very interesting!

 

The issue that bothers me is why the immediate past president lied to the Board, the clubs, and it’s members regarding why the online membership program failed to launch last year.

Based on the link to the Dept. of Justice site that you have pointed out in this thread there has not been any complaints registered with their office prior to Sept of 2016 all the way back to 2006. Yet in the following letter from the immediate past president, he states there was a “FORMAL COMPLAINT” made and that was made by a member club. These two points were lies as this shows based on link to DOJ.

 

December 28, 2015

 

 

Attention: All NHSA Club Presidents and Membership contacts

 

 

Re: Online Membership Sales

 

 

 

This notice is to inform you that the New Hampshire Snowmobile Association (NHSA) will need to delay the availability of online Club Membership sales.

 

A Member Club has made a formal complaint to the NH Attorney Generals Office against NHSA regarding potential antitrust issues related to the requirement of standard membership fees to participate in the online sales system. As a result, additional time is needed to work cooperatively with the Attorney General's office to address the issue raised before implementation can occur.

 

At this time it is unclear how long it will take to work through this administrative process with the Attorney General's office but we are hoping we can resolve the issue within the next thirty (30) days.

 

If you have any questions or concerns relative to this delay, please feel free to contact the NHSA office at 603-273-0220.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Roger Wright

President

Never Have Straight Answer

It is sad that the Directors of our Counties are not presented with facts to base the decisions on, but instead they are just spoon fed lies to pass along to their member clubs at County Meetings. I hope the Board of Directors starts to realize they are just being given bits and pieces of the truth to push along an agenda by the chosen few who were elected by the membership to lead, not lie to, this ONCE fine organization.

The membership of this, ONCE, fine organization deserve better.

 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

 

 

 

This is what we thought we were going to get!

Edited October 26, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[slord 17]

Actually I am not surprised.  It was only a matter of time because the Letter of Understanding is an illegal document.  When a club president signs the general letter of understanding that constitutes a contract between the association and that club.  From the contract:

Clubs that choose to participate in Online Membership Sales agree to a standard (Single/Family) dues of $35 for the balance of the same year effective from participation start date; Dues include NHSA dues of $10 and club dues of $25.

That is a clear violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

RSA 356:2 Restraints Prohibited

I. Every contract, combination, or conspiracy in restraint of trade is unlawful.

II. Every contract, combination, or conspiracy is unlawful which has the purpose of the effect of: (a) Fixing, controlling or maintaining prices, rates, quotation, or fees in any part of trade or commerce;

At the moment the general letter of understanding has been pulled from the club portal.  You will get an error that says "Could not connect to database".  I asked about this at the presidents dinner and the answer I received was "It is working on my copy".  I am not opposed to the online program, I do think it will be good. My club the Southern New Hampshire Snow Slickers has chosen not to participate in the program until it becomes legal.

  

[rivercat 119]

Steve tho I do not disagree with your post  I feel we ALL need the benefit of time establish

#1 What the nature of the complaint is

#2 The  Board of directors  discuss and respond to the complaint thru the office

I'm not sure it bodes well for anyone to make "assumptions"

just saying,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Yamiblue 30]

Sooooooo , what takes so long? or why

[rivercat 119]

The office of the AG has if mailed a letter it has not reached the office YET!!!!!

 if it has reached the office it will be brought before the next board of directors meeting as we do not all "live" in Tilton

Some directors have over  a 3 hour round trip to attend the monthly board meetings!  Each NH Count is represented with a director and assistant director

Next scheduled directors meeting is November 15th  7 pm Tilton

[WINNOCTURN 60]

Steve Lord

"At the moment the general letter of understanding has been pulled from the club portal.  You will get an error that says "Could not connect to database".  I asked about this at the presidents dinner and the answer I received was "It is working on my copy".  I am not opposed to the online program, I do think it will be good. My club the Southern New Hampshire Snow Slickers has chosen not to participate in the program until it becomes legal."

 

The letter has been down since late July/Early August. I track it almost daily. Below is a screen shoot with time and date?

Roger stated at the Presidents meeting he was not aware of it being down. Well it's still down!

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[Freedom Rider 209]

4 minutes ago, rivercat said:

The office of the AG has if mailed a letter it has not reached the office YET!!!!!

 if it has reached the office it will be brought before the next board of directors meeting as we do not all "live" in Tilton

Some directors have over  a 3 hour round trip to attend the monthly board meetings!  Each NH Count is represented with a director and assistant director

Next scheduled directors meeting is November 15th  7 pm Tilton

That is based on IF the Directors actually get any truth out of the leadership of the Association.

Based on this time-frame you have put down it still gives them until November 15th to FABRICATE a plausible story to present to the Directors as they see it. I see that it is at 7:00pm. That is the same time when I was a kid that my parents had story-time for us too.

Could you shed any light on my post above regarding the lies that were told to the membership of the NHSA this past winter? Rogers words were those of the Board or was that an exception to the rule and the Board didn't know that it was a fabrication?

[RK-SXViper 144]

Everyone just needs to take a deep breath and relax. As with anything else there are two sides to every story, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I know both Dave and I will be asking questions at the next board meeting as to what this is all about and why we had to learn about it on social media instead of the proper chain of communication!

[rivercat 119]

9 minutes ago, Freedom Rider said:

That is based on IF the Directors actually get any truth out of the leadership of the Association.

Based on this time-frame you have put down it still gives them until November 15th to FABRICATE a plausible story to present to the Directors as they see it. I see that it is at 7:00pm. That is the same time when I was a kid that my parents had story-time for us too.

Could you shed any light on my post above regarding the lies that were told to the membership of the NHSA this past winter? Rogers words were those of the Board or was that an exception to the rule and the Board didn't know that it was a fabrication?

  The screenshot of the notices from the AG I think may represent all or any complaints between those dates,,, I am not aware with the AG's website but it looks that way to me,, 

[ljgomes 77]

So I called the AG's office to find out if this complaint was public information.  The guy who answered the phone did not know but he said I could send in a request for info to try and get a copy.  Since they don't have a request-for-info form, he said to fill out a Consumer Complaint form and skip the check box section and put in the request for a copy of the complaint in the fill-in section at the bottom and then email it in.  If I get time later on today, I may just do that.

[Freedom Rider 209]

25 minutes ago, rivercat said:

  The screenshot of the notices from the AG I think may represent all or any complaints between those dates,,, I am not aware with the AG's website but it looks that way to me,, 

The AG's office and Dept. of Justice website you and I are referring to are one in the same. It states there has been only the 1 complaint. So I guess I will ask my question a little differently. Why did the letter go out with information that was a lie? Did the Board authorize it or were you guys in the dark about the validity of Rogers claims?  Those are 2 simple questions that the Board should have had the info on. They either were complicate in the lie OR they were lied to about it as well. Which one of the two? Liars or lied to?

[rivercat 119]

25 minutes ago, RK-SXViper said:

Everyone just needs to take a deep breath and relax. As with anything else there are two sides to every story, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I know both Dave and I will be asking questions at the next board meeting as to what this is all about and why we had to learn about it on social media instead of the proper chain of communication!

Rob,  the FIRST thing the board needs to try to grasp is that  information travels 186,000 miles per second electronically 

HOWEVER  the way snail mail works and the NHSA meetings work certain "process" can sometimes take years to accomplish! 

No member here or anywhere likes to wait" as the "process" directly affects their recreational time,  everyone here no matter if  they appear sarcastic or not are just worn to a nub from  the last  TWO years of the membership program, the changes, and lack of snow! 

I will go to bat and say I do not think anyone has tried to sabotage out sport,,  however this is a perfect example what happen when everyone does not work as a TEAM!

[rivercat 119]

14 minutes ago, Freedom Rider said:

The AG's office and Dept. of Justice website you and I are referring to are one in the same. It states there has been only the 1 complaint. So I guess I will ask my question a little differently. Why did the letter go out with information that was a lie? Did the Board authorize it or were you guys in the dark about the validity of Rogers claims?  Those are 2 simple questions that the Board should have had the info on. They either were complicate in the lie OR they were lied to about it as well. Which one of the two? Liars or lied to?

 

14 minutes ago, Freedom Rider said:

The AG's office and Dept. of Justice website you and I are referring to are one in the same. It states there has been only the 1 complaint. So I guess I will ask my question a little differently. Why did the letter go out with information that was a lie? Did the Board authorize it or were you guys in the dark about the validity of Rogers claims?  Those are 2 simple questions that the Board should have had the info on. They either were complicate in the lie OR they were lied to about it as well. Which one of the two? Liars or lied to?

 

15 minutes ago, Freedom Rider said:

The AG's office and Dept. of Justice website you and I are referring to are one in the same. It states there has been only the 1 complaint. So I guess I will ask my question a little differently. Why did the letter go out with information that was a lie? Did the Board authorize it or were you guys in the dark about the validity of Rogers claims?  Those are 2 simple questions that the Board should have had the info on. They either were complicate in the lie OR they were lied to about it as well. Which one of the two? Liars or lied to?

Jeff not Liars OR lied to, it does NOT say their was 1 complaint, it says there is ONE COMPLAINT OPEN!

 re-read and ask yourself  if MAYBE based on what I am saying there COULD have been one OR MORE complaints in the listed time period  I suggest you check with the office and report back to us on that

[WINNOCTURN 60]

48 minutes ago, rivercat said:

 

 

Jeff not Liars OR lied to, it does NOT say their was 1 complaint, it says there is ONE COMPLAINT OPEN!

 re-read and ask yourself  if MAYBE based on what I am saying there COULD have been one OR MORE complaints in the listed time period  I suggest you check with the office and report back to us on that

Dave,

The Complaint is in "PROGRESS" and I will guaranty you, it has to do the the NHSA Online Membership PROGRAM.

I would not wait till the next "Board" Meeting to find out what this is about. It is a very serious effort to correct a severe problem. You may want to ask  for an Emergency Meet of the Board?

I would not make it a "SECRET" Meeting.

Edited October 26, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[Freedom Rider 209]

46 minutes ago, rivercat said:

 

 

Jeff not Liars OR lied to, it does NOT say their was 1 complaint, it says there is ONE COMPLAINT OPEN!

 re-read and ask yourself  if MAYBE based on what I am saying there COULD have been one OR MORE complaints in the listed time period  I suggest you check with the office and report back to us on that

Dave,

This is printed from their website. It is the HISTORY of complaints over the last 10 years. So, yes you are correct there may well have been more complaints prior to 2006 but they do not list them. It only shows this 1 complaint in process and none since 2006. Based on that how does my question asked get answered? Did Board lie or get lied to?

nhsa complaint.pdf

Edited October 26, 2016 by Freedom Rider

[slord 17]

5 hours ago, WINNOCTURN said:

 

 

 

This is what we thought we were going to get!

What would work is this:

1. Consumer has the option to join or not to join NHSA

2. Number Voucher System (Fish and Game can work with this)

3. Club's set their own dues (avoids price fixing)

In my opinion....

[ckf 297]

Transparency would go a long way at fixing things between the NHSA and it's members. 

[Skip 263]

Dave, don't take this wrong (or personally), but once the AG's office published that an active investigation was being pursued after a complaint the issue becomes a public matter that is fair game for discussion, debate and yes....speculation!

I hope you are correct...that the office has not yet received notification of the investigation. Because shortly we will all know who was notified and when. But don't forget, I used to be part of the "inner circle". I've sat with the select few where discussions were held on what, or if, we were going to tell the rest of the Board of Directors. That was why I commented about "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

This is a perfect opportunity for you and the rest of the Board of Directors, along with the new Executive Director, to be totally open with the BOD and the membership regarding this complaint, its validity, and what corrective action (if any) needs to be taken.

However, its been 24 hours since this investigation notice has been discussed openly. Instead of you calling the AG, shouldn't the Executive Director/President be utilizing the in house attorney....and if so notifying the BOD that an emergency legal issue has arisen that requires expenditures prior to the next regularly scheduled meeting in mid November?

I know you need to be cautious in your responses....I hear you spend so much time in the back room at Tilton that it has been nicknamed "Dave's Woodshed"...but I do appreciate your loyalty to the association and your willingness to stick your neck out and communicate with the general membership, a task still frowned upon by the controlling factor in Tilton.

But this could be an excellent opportunity for the association to communicate openly and honestly with the membership, in a timely manner, and convince us that things truly are changing at the NHSA!

[Freedom Rider 209]

I looked into following Larry lead to get to the truth as we more than likely won't hear anything about this from Tilton for months if not years.

Here is a link to the form you need to send in to request a copy of the complaint.

http://doj.nh.gov/consumer/documents/consumer-complaint.pdf

Put your info in. Don't check boxes listed. In area for more info put in that you would like to receive a copy of this complaint. The DOJ is using this form as they have no formal request form for information. It says they can take up to 3 weeks to respond.

I would think the more members of our sport that know facts not conjuncture the harder it will be for certain parties to lie to us.