Formal Complaint Filed Against the NHSA

[WINNOCTURN 60]

2 hours ago, John Mercier said:

From my understanding, they didn't want the clubs on the electronic service to be competing with each other for members based on price. 

John M,

This what were were told we were getting, same as the New York State Snowmobile Association has for a Dues format set by the Club.

The software was supposed basically the same as NYSSA Software. I heard that the Software Engineer they used was one that NYSSA dropped?

One BUTTON at $35.00, How hard to have 2 BUTTONS at X-$$$$ and Y-$$$$?

"PRICE FIXING"  These figures below are generated by EACH Club not the ASSOCIATION.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[John Mercier 36]

On 10/30/2016 at 3:12 PM, jhwentworth said:

Isn't that the definition of restraint of trade?

No. It would only be if a club had to use the system, or had to be affiliated with the NHSA.

No club is required to use the system, nor is any club required to be affiliated with the NHSA.

It falls to the same comparative of the individual rider. No rider is required to use the system, nor is any rider required to join a club... they do so because they see the benefit of such.

 

[jhwentworth 307]

Being on the membership system offers a significant competitive advantage in attracting membership (customers) to those clubs using the system over clubs that don't use it. The NHSA required fixed membership prices as a condition for using the membership system. If GM told its dealers that all dealers must sell at the same price, and offending dealers would lose corporate advertising support, I think that would be an analogy to the NHSA situation. The $30 registration discount is a powerful inducement for clubs to join NHSA, even if all the individual members don't have to join NHSA.

"From my understanding, they didn't want the clubs on the electronic service to be competing with each other for members based on price."

Restraint of Trade: action that interferes with free competition in a market. Restraint of trade is any activity that hinders someone else from doing business in the way that he would normally do it if there were no restraints. 

Price competition is as American as apple pie. NHSA was trying to eliminate price competition among its member clubs. NHSA doesn't appear to like apple pie. 

[John Mercier 36]

1 hour ago, jhwentworth said:

Being on the membership system offers a significant competitive advantage in attracting membership (customers) to those clubs using the system over clubs that don't use it. The NHSA required fixed membership prices as a condition for using the membership system. If GM told its dealers that all dealers must sell at the same price, and offending dealers would lose corporate advertising support, I think that would be an analogy to the NHSA situation. The $30 registration discount is a powerful inducement for clubs to join NHSA, even if all the individual members don't have to join NHSA.

"From my understanding, they didn't want the clubs on the electronic service to be competing with each other for members based on price."

Restraint of Trade: action that interferes with free competition in a market. Restraint of trade is any activity that hinders someone else from doing business in the way that he would normally do it if there were no restraints. 

Price competition is as American as apple pie. NHSA was trying to eliminate price competition among its member clubs. NHSA doesn't appear to like apple pie. 

But then you also have the argument that the club incentive hinders someone from doing business as they normally would... 

And GM did tell dealers that they would sell at a fixed price... that was the Saturn model.

But all dealers did not have to be Saturn dealers, and all dealers did not have to be GM dealers.

 A better comparison is that I have cable... but if I want the enhanced packages, I pay more. NHSA is just telling clubs that if they want the registration incentive, then they have to pay a certain price, and if they want the enhanced marketing, then they pay at another level. Each level has its own rules and regulations.

 

 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

John,

 A better comparison is that I have cable... but if I want the enhanced packages, I pay more. NHSA is just telling clubs that if they want the registration incentive, then they have to pay a certain price, and if they want the enhanced marketing, then they pay at another level. Each level has its own rules and regulations.

John,

Clubs have been getting along for years selling their Memberships, Paper or Electronic. The problem started at Fish and Game with BAD audit. I suggested over a year ago, even before the NHSA got off the ground for the clubs to use a simple ID NO that consisted of the Club NHSA ID 102 and a 6 digit sequential Serial Number i.e.; 102234567. I was branded a HERITC for this option.

With the fixed ID No signifying the Club you should not get duplicate ID Number in to the Fish & Game Database. This is now what Clubs are doing in place of the NHSA VULTURE Number. 

If you saw my post of the NYSSA Club Membership Prices you will see the Clubs are saying what types of membership they offer, Individual, Family plus pricing levels, not the Association. At that time last year the NYSSA was asked if they experienced "PRICE SHOPPING" they said it was not a problem. 

The RSA is quite clear that the Discount is a CLUB participation program to grow the ranks of CLUBS NOT NHSA. Remember the most significant sentence in the RSA, You must be a MEMBER OF A CLUB THAT IS AMEMBER OF NHSA. You can be a Member of a Club but you do not have to be a Member of NHSA to qualify for the Discount.

John,

If the NHSA/Rogers Program is so well thought of way after is the cornerstone of the program, the LETTER OF UNDERSTANDING has been missing from the Club Portal since early August. At the October Presidents Meeting it was brought to NHSA/Rogers attention with a response by roger he was not aware it was not available through the Club Portal. As of this writing it is still missing. The first requirement in this document is that the INDIVIDUEL MUST BE A MEMBER OF NHSA. I interpret this to mean that to qualify for the $30.00 Discount you have to be a Member of NHSA which goes directly against the intent of the RSA. You are also being charged, on top off  a possibly higher Club dues fee, a PROCESSING FEE that goes to NHSA for the Convenience of using their PROGRAM.

One more thought?

"IF" the "RSA DISCOUNT" was setup for the Clubs to generate $$$ and more "CLUB MEMBERS", does NHSA actually qualify under the RSA to sell Memberships that grant the Discount???

 

If anyone is really concerned to KNOW why this Complaint was made, go back and fill out a FOIA Request. The LETTER I post to file a FOIA request is very simple to complete and File (Mail to AG's Office). You want to mail Register/Receipt Requested. The cost $6.47. You can track its' move meant online at https://www.usps.com/

The more people request this information the more the AG's Office will know there is great concern over this matter.

 

Latter,

Edited November 1, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[jhwentworth 307]

23 minutes ago, John Mercier said:

But then you also have the argument that the club incentive hinders someone from doing business as they normally would... 

And GM did tell dealers that they would sell at a fixed price... that was the Saturn model.

But all dealers did not have to be Saturn dealers, and all dealers did not have to be GM dealers.

No, GM was never able to "tell" dealers to charge a uniform price for Saturns. GM suggested strongly that dealers charge a fixed list price, but not all dealers did it, many by offering bigger trade-ins. Real simple; a manufacturer cannot tell a distributor what they have to charge for a product. They can find ways to favor preferred distributors, like targeting hot products toward them, but they can't fix the price. Remember, in the auto world it's MSRP on the window: Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. Essentially, GM's "no-haggle" pricing for Saturn was a marketing gimmick.

23 minutes ago, John Mercier said:

 A better comparison is that I have cable... but if I want the enhanced packages, I pay more. NHSA is just telling clubs that if they want the registration incentive, then they have to pay a certain price, and if they want the enhanced marketing, then they pay at another level. Each level has its own rules and regulations.

 

 

The cable analogy doesn't hold up. First, you are the consumer, so you can't be part of any price fixing. Now, if Comcast and Time-Warner conspired to fix prices for their services there would be grounds for legal action. Second, the NHSA doesn't vary the cost of the club's NHSA membership based on whether the club uses the electronic membership system. Together, the NHSA and the clubs are partners in the business of selling individual memberships and essentially split the individual's membership fee. The NHSA has every right to charge any fee they wish for an individual NHRA membership, but they don't have the right to tell a club how much they must charge their members.

[rneal55555 12]

I usually stay out of this but the real analogy is this.    You own a store and sell soda.  Coke charges you 50 cents a can for their product and Pepsi charges 75 cents. In your store you decide to just charge 75 cents plus a nickel surcharge to keep the lights on.  You also have a desire to keep all the soda makers prosperous so you decide to just pass the extra quarter for each coke back to them.   Because that is what is actually happening here.

Outside of that store any club is free to charge whatever price they choose but the Membership system is just a store and the clubs are the manufacturers they make the product. 

 

[Freedom Rider 209]

10 hours ago, rneal55555 said:

I usually stay out of this but the real analogy is this.    You own a store and sell soda.  Coke charges you 50 cents a can for their product and Pepsi charges 75 cents. In your store you decide to just charge 75 cents plus a nickel surcharge to keep the lights on.  You also have a desire to keep all the soda makers prosperous so you decide to just pass the extra quarter for each coke back to them.   Because that is what is actually happening here.

Outside of that store any club is free to charge whatever price they choose but the Membership system is just a store and the clubs are the manufacturers they make the product. 

 

Russ, Based on your post I would assume that the NHSA Board or you, knows more in regards to the Formal Complaint than they are telling their members. As no info is available thru the AG's office, your comment says you know what the complaint is about.

There is nothing from the source that is being released to the public regarding this matter as it is an active investigation. How did you get the information that this formal complaint has anything to due with the membership program? We have had two other County Directors for the NHSA post on this thread. Neither said anything to do with knowing what this complaint is about. Dave spoke directly on the subject and said that the Association has no info as to what this is in regards to and that the Full Board will get the info as soon as it is available and that they will try to keep members in the loop.

, rivercat

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Posted 26 October · Report post

Steve tho I do not disagree with your post  I feel we ALL need the benefit of time establish

#1 What the nature of the complaint is

#2 The  Board of directors  discuss and respond to the complaint thru the office

I'm not sure it bodes well for anyone to make "assumptions"

just saying,,,,,,,,,,,,,

rivercat

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Posted Friday at 11:58 PM (edited) · Report post

Just am update, the NHSA BOD met this eve and the pending complaint from the office of the AG was discussed,,,,, here is what was determined!!

 

#1 The office of the AG must first decide if the complaint is  valid enough for action on their office   ( not all complaints are acted on)

 

#2 The office of the AG once they have determined their is a "claim" will reach out to NHSA for information

 

#3  NO ONE in the  NHSA office or other wise knows what the complaint is other then the party that filed it, 

 

#4 It was decided once the matter is brought forward the general directors will be emailed  and   full board input  will be assured

We ask your understanding in allowing the office of the AG to review  and take the necessary steps  to handle this at this time,,

 I hope this is clear  and it was discussed and voted for myself and Rob (Sk Viper) to try to keep you  informed as best we can,,, thanks much Rivercat

 

At this moment  "beating the horse is pointless as the AG's office could not tell the NHSA office  of the complaint! 

 

We will do our best,,,

 

 

Edited Friday at 11:59 PM by rivercat
spelling

Did you go to a different meeting than Dave or Rob? Or do you have an inside contact at the Ag’s office? Or maybe it was one of the people in your county that did the filing and you heard some scuttlebutt?

I would say if you don’t have fact on what type of complaint and by who was making it, it would be easier to put the fire out with water than the gasoline you just threw.

 

 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

Jeff,

 

Maybe he filed a FOIA request as I and Others have?

If he has not, He can go back several "Posts" and use the FOIA Letter I Posted. Anyone can file a FOIA Request.

 

Now that I think of it, can I file one on HILLERY, HUMMA and Carlos Danger?

 

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[rneal55555 12]

There you go again always assuming something is a foot, I was merely responding to the two or three post in this thread just above mine offering analogies to cable companies and car makers. 

Unless the AG kicked something out to the yesterday or today that hasn't filtered out yet you know what we know.

[John Mercier 36]

I hate to inform you John, but they can. Try buying a John Deere at any Home Depot or Tractor Supply... John Deere sets the price and the ''distributors'' either abide by that price or lose the option to participate. Try buying a FesTool at any supplier that you can find... FesTool sets the prices, and the ''distributors'' either abide by that price or lose the option to participate. 

The clubs that will use the NHSA electronic system will need to agree to abide by whatever the NHSA establishes as the rules to using that system, or lose the option to participate.

As for the ''trade in'' analogy... to my knowledge.., the NHSA did not state that a club could not return some of its membership money to the members. 

But the really Big Problem that clubs are complaining about is the new system would market those clubs on it better than clubs that do not use it. No more ''captured'' clientele for the clubs. So in theory, more money would go to the clubs with the best trails and best snow.

 

 

[Saluda 110]

Be glad when all this finally comes out.

[Freedom Rider 209]

Could be a very long wait. This is election time and I am sure that slows everything up with extra attention to detail to make sure it looks good for anyone's boss who may be running.

Due diligence is required when dealing with anything that goes to Dept. of Justice. Could be huge, could be nothing, sit back and wait.

Come on Red Sox!!!

[Freedom Rider 209]

This thread is rated PG (Pretty Good) by Captain KoolAid himself!!!!! Remember folks KoolAid is not just for kids

Edited November 2, 2016 by Freedom Rider

[John Mercier 36]

It never fully gets resolved because it is a battle between the clubs. I have seldom seen an issue were all the clubs are on the same side of the issue - especially when it comes to financing.

In this case, you have a limited number of participants, and each club would like to get as many of them as possible.

 

[WINNOCTURN 60]

Waiting for the AG's reply to my FOIA request. It was received on Monday November 1st according to the USPS. By Law they have to reply in 5 days.

Again feel free to use the letter I attached on one of my earlier post to this thread to send your own FOIA Request.  It only takes a minute to fill it out?

Talk about getting involved!

Hay anybody got a glass Lemon&Lime COOL-AID. That's my favorite.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by WINNOCTURN

[John Mercier 36]

They might just reply that it is an ongoing legal investigation.

 

[snorander 216]

On 11/1/2016 at 5:57 PM, John Mercier said:

Try buying a John Deere at any Home Depot or Tractor Supply... John Deere sets the price and the ''distributors'' either abide by that price or lose the option to participate.

 

The John Deere Tractors at big box stores are not the same as the tractors at John Deere dealers. The big box stores have made deals with manufactures to supply exclusive products at attractive price points and the machine is no where as good quality (plastic parts, thinner metal frames, etc). I do agree that the John Deere Dealer has to sell them at what John Deere tells them, but not so much with Lowes & Home Depot.

[Freedom Rider 209]

7 minutes ago, snorander said:

The John Deere Tractors at big box stores are not the same as the tractors at John Deere dealers. The big box stores have made deals with manufactures to supply exclusive products at attractive price points and the machine is no where as good quality (plastic parts, thinner metal frames, etc). I do agree that the John Deere Dealer has to sell them at what John Deere tells them, but not so much with Lowes & Home Depot.

What lawnmowers, soda, and everything else mentioned have to do with a membership program is beyond me. What is important to remember is that in order you the consumer to receive a discount on your State registration you must join 1 non profit and then FORCED to join another as well (because of trade restriction, oops I mean Letter of Understanding). How would people feel if New Hampshire, in it's infinite wisdom, said you must join AAA to be able to register your auto. If you are over 50 years old you must join AARP as well. LIVE FREE OR DIE my ASS!!

[John Mercier 36]

2 hours ago, snorander said:

The John Deere Tractors at big box stores are not the same as the tractors at John Deere dealers. The big box stores have made deals with manufactures to supply exclusive products at attractive price points and the machine is no where as good quality (plastic parts, thinner metal frames, etc). I do agree that the John Deere Dealer has to sell them at what John Deere tells them, but not so much with Lowes & Home Depot.

NO. The Johne Deere Tractors at the Big Box stores are exactly the same as the ones at the dealers.

They are even required to have an on-site inspection and assembly done by a dealer, and required to have a warranty card made out with the serial number for further reference. And yes... Lowes, Home Depot, and Tractor Supply must adhere to the set pricing of all their products per contractual agreement.

The exclusive products at attractive price points are in electric hand tools... mostly from DeWalt and Makita. These tools have limited scope of repair and are designed to compete with exclusives such as HD's Ryobi line. They have an extra letter on their serial number.

 

[John Mercier 36]

2 hours ago, Freedom Rider said:

What lawnmowers, soda, and everything else mentioned have to do with a membership program is beyond me. What is important to remember is that in order you the consumer to receive a discount on your State registration you must join 1 non profit and then FORCED to join another as well (because of trade restriction, oops I mean Letter of Understanding). How would people feel if New Hampshire, in it's infinite wisdom, said you must join AAA to be able to register your auto. If you are over 50 years old you must join AARP as well. LIVE FREE OR DIE my ASS!!

It was bad policy that the most of the clubs fully supported; but you are not required to actually join... you do so because you feel it is to your benefit.

 

[Old Thumper 150]

5 minutes ago, John Mercier said:

It was bad policy that the most of the clubs fully supported; but you are not required to actually join... you do so because you feel it is to your benefit.

 

Or....  You join the SNHSS

BTW - I bought a JD mower at a JD dealer, and I think it is just as much a turd as anything the Big Box stores sell.  I should have gone with a Honda mower .....

Edited November 3, 2016 by Old Thumper

[Freedom Rider 209]

Well it's been 9 days since I filed my complaint so to be able to receive any information to do with the Formal Complaint that is in the AG's office. I have received nothing from them as far as info.

Skip or maybe George, have you guys heard anything via the FOIA method of filing? I remember that you had posted that they had 5 days to response vs. my type of request it said can take up to 3 weeks for them to address it.

Hopefully someone will get some info and it could be shared with the concerned folks on here.

[jhwentworth 307]

"I remember that you had posted that they had 5 days to respond vs. my type of request it said can take up to 3 weeks for them to address it."

 

I can explain that. No doubt you're heard of something called "dog years", right? Usually it means a 7-to-1 correlation between  canine and human years. There's a similar correlation between human days and state agency days, so I'd figure that you have 26 more days to wait.

[Old Thumper 150]

Freedom of Information in a NHSA thread

 

We are sailing on uncharted waters here!