Formal Complaint Filed Against the NHSA

[Skip 263]

I'm going to go a different route Jeff and file a 91-a request in the next day or two requesting a copy of the complaint and documentation of any notifications that have been made in reference to the complaint. That triggers a five day response window from the AG's office, or they must reply with what legal reference prevents them from fulfilling the response.

I'll post the AG's response when I receive it....

 

[Old Thumper 150]

Decision made!

This year I am going to pay $96 per sled to register as a "Non Member".

 

[rivercat 119]

4 hours ago, Skip said:

Dave, don't take this wrong (or personally), but once the AG's office published that an active investigation was being pursued after a complaint the issue becomes a public matter that is fair game for discussion, debate and yes....speculation!

I hope you are correct...that the office has not yet received notification of the investigation. Because shortly we will all know who was notified and when. But don't forget, I used to be part of the "inner circle". I've sat with the select few where discussions were held on what, or if, we were going to tell the rest of the Board of Directors. That was why I commented about "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

This is a perfect opportunity for you and the rest of the Board of Directors, along with the new Executive Director, to be totally open with the BOD and the membership regarding this complaint, its validity, and what corrective action (if any) needs to be taken.

However, its been 24 hours since this investigation notice has been discussed openly. Instead of you calling the AG, shouldn't the Executive Director/President be utilizing the in house attorney....and if so notifying the BOD that an emergency legal issue has arisen that requires expenditures prior to the next regularly scheduled meeting in mid November?

I know you need to be cautious in your responses....I hear you spend so much time in the back room at Tilton that it has been nicknamed "Dave's Woodshed"...but I do appreciate your loyalty to the association and your willingness to stick your neck out and communicate with the general membership, a task still frowned upon by the controlling factor in Tilton.

But this could be an excellent opportunity for the association to communicate openly and honestly with the membership, in a timely manner, and convince us that things truly are changing at the NHSA!

First want to say Thanks Skip and to everyone on this forum and there are MANY great people that I have defended as needed,,,

I'll say this,,, Skip you may be right about calling in to find what info is available and I will be doing my heads up to the needed people in the AM,,,,  every one of us share a few things in common,,, our passion for the sport, and we all have an opinion of whats fair,,,  as well as an opinion of understanding the  laws.

I a m not in agreement with everything going on  at this time HOWEVER I will say this and its important to understand,,,, 

With a new Executive board, and a new Director as of  this past July I truly see good people putting good effort in righting the ship.  It does take time to feel your way along and not only  do these new people have to do the day to day stuff,,, they have to become accustomed to their new positions, and then on top of it put out fires and field the balls from the office of the Ag and all other fires that "pop" up! 

For our president she has to do this as well as be the Dr. in her own DVM practice as well as be a wife, mother and care for her own animals  she has plenty on her plate!

I  am anxious to see the complaint and feel policy needs to be reviewed by the ENTIRE BOARD  and then made transparently clear to all!!!! 

Including "myself'!   YES I HAVE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS!   and I want to believe that the "quality" of the personalities  and how they should mesh that resolution is not too far off,,, 

[Saluda 110]

Hoping for the best. NHSA could be a great organization. 

[pekabu 35]

13 hours ago, Old Thumper said:

Decision made!

This year I am going to pay $96 per sled to register as a "Non Member".

 

You could join a club that doesn't require NHSA membership.   That way you support a local club, and if you need to register another sled leaves money for the groomer bucket.   

[jhwentworth 307]

19 minutes ago, pekabu said:

You could join a club that doesn't require NHSA membership.   That way you support a local club, and if you need to register another sled leaves money for the groomer bucket.   

Clearly the better choice!

[PolarisCobra 132]

Is there a club that we could join that doesn't require NHSA membership? There could well be, but I am not aware of it. Might be something to consider. 

[Old Thumper 150]

1 hour ago, pekabu said:

You could join a club that doesn't require NHSA membership.   That way you support a local club, and if you need to register another sled leaves money for the groomer bucket.   

 

[ckf 297]

50 minutes ago, jhwentworth said:

Clearly the better choice!

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. It's pretty obvious that NH has a funding issue when it comes to snowmobiling lately. If someone decides to skip the club discount the entire $30 goes to BOT and is spread around the state through grant in aide. Chances are any club that offers a membership without a NHSA membership will be less than $30. So less $$$ is going toward snowmobiling in NH.

[Freedom Rider 209]

56 minutes ago, PolarisCobra said:

Is there a club that we could join that doesn't require NHSA membership? There could well be, but I am not aware of it. Might be something to consider. 

The Southern New Hampshire Snowslickers.

I would like to see more clubs come out with a membership initiative like the Southern New Hampshire Snow Slickers. They have stepped up their A game and are creating their own in house GIA to help maintain the 110-mile trail network they cover.

Their membership program offers club membership program offers consumers the CHOICE of joining the NHSA. The Base price for club membership is $30.00 for a family. If a joining member wants to join the NHSA they must pay an additional $5.00 and the club matches it with $5.00 and sends their $10.00 dues to the NHSA. If they chose not to join the NHSA they take the match monies and use it for the funding of their trails program. There are other additional options available such as key card for gated parking at clubhouse, in season trailer storage, and off season trailer storage.Here is a link for more info. http://www.snowmobile-nh.com/

The process of joining is very easy. Besides at meetings and dealerships, you can join from their website or facebook app's. Pay thru Paypal and your membership materials are emailed to you. Fast turnaround too!

With cuts to GIA hitting all clubs hard it is good to see a club finding ways to fund their trails projects.

[PolarisCobra 132]

I wasn't aware that they were doing all those things. 

Thanks for the info. 

 

[dubba 7]

But if you do not join the nhsa through the snowslickers in house program, can you still receive discounted registrations?

[RK-SXViper 144]

1 hour ago, dubba said:

But if you do not join the nhsa through the snowslickers in house program, can you still receive discounted registrations?

Yes, because the RSA states that to get the discount you need to be a member of a club that is affiliated with NHSA. They pay their $30 club dues and are a member of NHSA, they are also a registration agent so they did get clarification from F&G.

[Freedom Rider 209]

1 hour ago, dubba said:

But if you do not join the nhsa through the snowslickers in house program, can you still receive discounted registrations?

 

From SNHSS website application process:
When you join our club online we will email you a receipt which will allow you to register your sled(s) to receive the discount. If you have signed up for a gate key we will mail it out within 3-5 business days! Thank You and Welcome!!

From NH F&G OHRV website. Article by John Wimsatt on May 19^th,2016

What this all means to the clubs and individual snowmobilers is that for this 2016/2017 season, the process you have previously used to show proof of a paid membership to a club that is a member of NHSA remains largely unchanged. We are not asking clubs to develop new numbering systems or cards, etc. Use may choose to use the NHSA Voucher electronic system, or you may provide proof at the time of registration of a paid application, or provide a valid recognized club ID card for the current registration year. If you have any questions, please contact the NHSA office to discuss your options of providing proof of club membership.

[slord 17]

One important issue clubs need to remember. The snowslickers have their own insurance policy.  If we were still with Allied (NHSA Policy) we would want to make sure that our volunteers who volunteer are NHSA members so that they would have coverage.

[Freedom Rider 209]

23 hours ago, Skip said:

I'm going to go a different route Jeff and file a 91-a request in the next day or two requesting a copy of the complaint and documentation of any notifications that have been made in reference to the complaint. That triggers a five day response window from the AG's office, or they must reply with what legal reference prevents them from fulfilling the response.

I'll post the AG's response when I receive it....

 

The issue over when information is released is dependent what type of complaint it is. Civil or Criminal. The info I got siad that is why there currently isn't a specific form for requesting the copies of complaint. When issues are finished or progressed to a point then the materials can be released to anybody who filled out complaint request form.

Dependent on type of complaint it could be quite awhile waiting. If no has received notice yet at office, I would bet it is very early on in whatever is going on.

Were you able to file the request you mentioned? Is that form any part of the FOI act?

[jhwentworth 307]

11 hours ago, ckf said:

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. It's pretty obvious that NH has a funding issue when it comes to snowmobiling lately. If someone decides to skip the club discount the entire $30 goes to BOT and is spread around the state through grant in aide. Chances are any club that offers a membership without a NHSA membership will be less than $30. So less $$$ is going toward snowmobiling in NH.

What I was agreeing with was instead of registering without  a club membership you should join a club that doesn't require NHSA membership if you're opposed to the current NHSA direction. That way, as Pekabu said, the club gets the money, you get the discount, and the NHSA gets nothing. He also said that any potential savings could be donated to the clubs. 

 

That said, I believe that the NHSA does some useful things, and needs to be supported in delivering those useful things. The great debate comes around as to what things they do that are useful to the individual members. If you're getting something you consider of value from the NHSA and don't financially support them. than you're mooching. It's the NHSA's job to convince you that they're providing something of value, and just because they think it's of value doesn't make it true to the members. The buyer does get to decide the value of the product or service.

Edited October 28, 2016 by jhwentworth

[Old Thumper 150]

1 hour ago, jhwentworth said:

What I was agreeing with was instead of registering without  a club membership you should join a club that doesn't require NHSA membership if you're opposed to the current NHSA direction. That way, as Pekabu said, the club gets the money, you get the discount, and the NHSA gets nothing. He also said that any potential savings could be donated to the clubs. 

Most of us had no clue that any club(s) were offering this option.  I had requested this with another club a couple years ago and it was met with resistance.

[jhwentworth 307]

7 minutes ago, Old Thumper said:

Most of us had no clue that any club(s) were offering this option.  I had requested this with another club a couple years ago and it was met with resistance.

I hear you. For many years the clubs would say they were all NHSA, meaning that all members must be NHSA members. I've joined multiple clubs in one year, and would find myself with 3-4-5 NHSA memberships because the clubs automatically included an NHSA membership and shipped the $10 to Tilton. With the online club membership program that issue seems resolved. Also, for me at least, the multiple copies of the Sno-Traveler have ceased. The online club membership program does work, and will be more accepted when the issues around standard club dues also get resolved. The online membership program was one of the things I was referring to when I spoke of value added services by NHSA, and it's unfortunate that this value was diminished by a desire to establish uniform club dues and mandatory NHSA memberships on the clubs. A simpler way would have been to add a user fee (beyond the current $2) that would go the NHSA. People that wanted to use the online system would pay for it. If not enough people paid to support it, than I guess the customers didn't see the service as a value-added. You have to think of the online club membership program as similar to Amazon's Prime program. Prime enhances the value of Amazon's services, and the customers pay for it willingly.

[rivercat 119]

Just am update, the NHSA BOD met this eve and the pending complaint from the office of the AG was discussed,,,,, here is what was determined!!

 

#1 The office of the AG must first decide if the complaint is  valid enough for action on their office   ( not all complaints are acted on)

 

#2 The office of the AG once they have determined their is a "claim" will reach out to NHSA for information

 

#3  NO ONE in the  NHSA office or other wise knows what the complaint is other then the party that filed it, 

 

#4 It was decided once the matter is brought forward the general directors will be emailed  and   full board input  will be assured

We ask your understanding in allowing the office of the AG to review  and take the necessary steps  to handle this at this time,,

 I hope this is clear  and it was discussed and voted for myself and Rob (Sk Viper) to try to keep you  informed as best we can,,, thanks much Rivercat

 

At this moment  "beating the horse is pointless as the AG's office could not tell the NHSA office  of the complaint! 

 

We will do our best,,,

 

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by rivercat
spelling

[Sled Dave 17]

Rivercat - THANK YOU 

[Skip 263]

Thanks for the update Dave. My 91-a request will be forwarded up to the AG's office Monday via registered snail mail. Once received they have 5 days to respond...and I'll share that response when I receive it.

Not doubting your words Dave, but as Ronald Reagan so famously quipped back in 1985...."trust, but verify"....

[WINNOCTURN 60]

NEW HAMPSHIRE FOIA REQUEST 

Skip earlier in this Thread indicated he was going to request a 91-A request of any and all information pertaining to the complaint filed on 9/30/16 against NHSA. I also will be request that information.

I have found a "Letter" posted by the Attorney Generals Office that helps to fill out such a Request. You only need to fill in your basic information, Name, Address, Phone and E-mail. I would recommend sent the Letter by Registered Mail.

I am attaching a copy that you can either download to "Word" or open and Print filling in the data manually.

Hopefully by more people requesting this information the Attorney General's Office will see there is a deep concern for this matter.

Thank You.

New Hampshire FOIA Request (SAMPLE)

From:

Name:
Address:
City/State/Zip:

Phone:

E-mail:

Date:

Consumer Complaints request to:

Consumer Protection and Antitrust Bureau

Office of the Attorney General

33 Capitol Street

Concord, NH 03301

Action against:

New Hampshire Snowmobile Association (aka NHSA)
614 Laconia Road #4
Tilton, NH 03276

Filing Date: 9/30/2016

Dear Sir,

Under the New Hampshire Right to Know Law R.S.A. Ch. 01-A et seq., I am requesting an opportunity to inspect or obtain copies of public records that speak to a Consumer Complaint filed against the New Hampshire Snowmobile Association (aka NHSA) on 9/30/2016 that is listed as Open – In Progress. I am requesting any and all information, Reason for the Complaint, Detail of what the Complaint seeks to remedy, who filed the complaint and who at NHSA the complaint is directed, Person or Persons. Also a copy or record of any and all correspondence, written, electronic or verbal, sent to the NHSA in regards to this complaint".

If there are any fees for searching or copying these records, please inform me if the cost will exceed $______.  However, I would also like to request a waiver of all fees in that the disclosure of the requested information is in the public interest and will contribute significantly to the public’s understanding of the Complaint. This information is not being sought for commercial purposes. I am a concerned Individual seek information in this matter.

 

The New Hampshire Right to Know Law requires a response time of five business days.  If access to the records I am requesting will take longer than this amount of time, please contact me with information about when I might expect copies or the ability to inspect the requested records.

If you deny any or all of this request, please cite each specific exemption you feel justifies the refusal to release the information and notify me of the appeal procedures available to me under the law.

Thank you for considering my request.

 

Sincerely,

 

_________________________________________

See Attachment:   

NHSA FOIA Request Letter.docx

Edited October 30, 2016 by WINNOCTURN
old and need new Glasses

[John Mercier 36]

On 10/28/2016 at 10:01 PM, jhwentworth said:

I hear you. For many years the clubs would say they were all NHSA, meaning that all members must be NHSA members. I've joined multiple clubs in one year, and would find myself with 3-4-5 NHSA memberships because the clubs automatically included an NHSA membership and shipped the $10 to Tilton. With the online club membership program that issue seems resolved. Also, for me at least, the multiple copies of the Sno-Traveler have ceased. The online club membership program does work, and will be more accepted when the issues around standard club dues also get resolved. The online membership program was one of the things I was referring to when I spoke of value added services by NHSA, and it's unfortunate that this value was diminished by a desire to establish uniform club dues and mandatory NHSA memberships on the clubs. A simpler way would have been to add a user fee (beyond the current $2) that would go the NHSA. People that wanted to use the online system would pay for it. If not enough people paid to support it, than I guess the customers didn't see the service as a value-added. You have to think of the online club membership program as similar to Amazon's Prime program. Prime enhances the value of Amazon's services, and the customers pay for it willingly.

From my understanding, they didn't want the clubs on the electronic service to be competing with each other for members based on price. 

[jhwentworth 307]

1 hour ago, John Mercier said:

From my understanding, they didn't want the clubs on the electronic service to be competing with each other for members based on price. 

Isn't that the definition of restraint of trade?