Leaderboard

I've been reading every one of these posts, and there are some very valid points. I've been riding all my life, (started at 5, 48 now), consider myself a sport rider and I see how the sport has outpriced many of my friends who used to go. I have 4 sleds, and register them all every year, and with the recent winters, that's pricey. We have threads here on SledNH saying register early, register in November, etc. Sorry, but no way. $244 for one or two snowstorms isn't happening. Am I one problem? Maybe, but I'm also a parent and have bills to pay. Priorities. I'm also a 17 year member of my club. The youngest member I'd say is around 30. Another Problem... There are many things that need to be fixed to attract new riders. I think clubs should set the speed limits! 45 in Pittsburg is stupid, but perfectly justified in Milton with its windy trails. Change in that area would be way good. I also think we need to address off trail riding WAY sooner than later. That kind of riding is being pushed by the manufacturers. If you went to the grass drags this year, you probably noticed the HUGE push on mountain sleds! Those were front row at every dealer, with the trail sleds kinda in the back somewhere. Unfortunately the dealers think NH is Montana or Wyoming with miles and miles of mountainous area or wide open field to sidehill or plow through. There are very few places like that here, and I think NONE below the White Mts, so if Maine has more, so be it. We can't be like Maine, or Montana, just like we can't be like Moab when it comes to certain off road activities. We're NH and we have certain geography we must take care of, OR promote certain areas to do that type of riding in. I get WideOpenOrNothins ideas and opinions, but unfortunately the dealers products have changed the way we snowmobile here in NH way faster than we as a state has adapted, and in the long run, more and more clubs are paying the price with pissed landowners and closed trails.

I agree that average speeds are faster in Maine. I have ridden in parts of the state, many of the trails are wider and straighter, for much longer distances, more like highways than state two lane roads. Distances between towns tend to be longer, riding faster is easier. There are trails in NH where you have plenty of room, and good sight-lines, but not near as many as in Maine. As for off trail, I would agree that opening up some defined areas where it's acceptable makes sense. It even makes sense for the NHSA to help with the process. But it also seems to me that the responsibility should be on the people who want to ride off trail to take the first step, start to work with landowners, then with the organization. I sometimes see posts on other sites where new off trail riders ask where they can ride. They typically get no answer, or someone is up front and tells them that no one is going to give up their secret spot. I would have to think that a big part of the reason they want to keep the secret is that they know they aren't supposed to be there. In the end, we have to understand that the landowners are in charge, and work with them, so we don't wind up with no place to ride.

Regarding speed...I'm curious how many folks are getting stopped and ticketed, and how frequently!?!? I'm a weekend warrior...have a vacation home in central NH... And while I very often exceed the 45 MPH speed limits (my whole life...i'm 43 now) I've only been "caught" and stopped once or maybe twice. With just a warning. My point is, I ride over 45. I use common sense and keep an eye...and the speed limit is NOT a deterrent for me to ride in NH. I mean seriously..."I want to drive faster so I'm going to Maine"... that sounds silly to me. BUT maybe I'm in a minority here of being lucky and not having to face the consequences of going over 45. LAND and riding areas. This is a big problem. I very much agree that legislation should consider working to find ways to allow off-trail access. The demand won't go away. If the only outcome is that folks go off trail regardless, pissing off land owners, then more and more trails will close and riding will become that much more difficult in the state. Despite bigger issues in VT (keep reading below) I found it interesting last year when riding there once that we came upon a HUGE open meadow/field and there were signs marking it as a designated area to ride freely. I thought it was genius... why not get permission from owners/companies/state to designate various areas as safe. Mark them on maps and post signs... OK...that's way easier said than done. But I agree with WideOpenOrNothing... Rather than just always saying "Stay On Trail" and closing trails when people close their land... why not take some actions to make some off trail riding permissible? In the meantime, land closures are more inevitable. And until rules change...if you really want to ride faster or go off-trail, then by all means go to Maine. I could care less and I'll keep riding NH trails. BUT the outcome of going off-trail in NH at the moment is far more impactful and detrimental than anything else. So STAY ON THE TRAIL! I actually did ride with some buddies in northern VT last weekend, and there were multiple sections of trails where you had to ride the road for MILES to continue on the trails. Luckily there was some coating of snow. During a warm-up, these sections would be impassable! The reason for those trails having to cross miles of public road...according to my group who are club groomers/volunteers there... land ownership/closures. Someone closes their land down...and there's no other choice. Lastly...northern migration is killing trails. Every year, more and more people move a bit further north. Once great riding areas in the southern or central part of the state, are getting thinned out as older generations die and sell off large plots of land for developers to come in and build housing.. "Flat landers" move in and could give a rats ass about keeping property open to allow snowmobiling...so trails get closed or very costly re-routes occur. This won't change.

Why surrender and accept sled registrations cannot increase? How about pushing FAMILY in NH snowmobiling? The 850s and Sidewinders are amazing, videos of off-trail riding are fun to watch and I’d love to do it (in Montana), but such developments are not going to increase participation in any significant way. Look at the vintage commercials for sled and you’ll it was all about getting the family out together; look at new commercials and all you see are the top models driven by professional riders going 70+ and or sailing 20-30 of a jump. How are those advertisements going to convince your wife the family should drop BIG dollars for sleds, tow vehicle, clothing, and all the other incidental costs? It won’t! Perception matters. Less families mean a lost opportunity to add big numbers of registered sleds and potential volunteers for clubs. BOT and F&G could even designate certain areas family friendly on certain weekends so people wouldn’t have to worry—as much—about some clown blowing a corner at 60 mph and hitting you or your kids head on…and the speed addicts would know where to avoid. 50 miles of riding with the wife and young kids riding is good day, and the family areas could be easily designated by the local club. There should be a state and retailer effort pushing the family aspect snowmobiling (why Snow Traveler last year had a SnowTrax story about the growth off-trial riding still mystifies me, it’s interesting from a very general standpoint of the overall sport, but it clearly isn’t the future of snowmobiling in NH). Dad can still get his 850 (and have days getting big miles with the guys) while retailers get more sales on entry level sleds, more sled maintenance and apparel sales opportunities, and the state and clubs win too. The Youtube video that was released when Yamaha reintroduced the Snow Scoot last year is the perfect example of what I mean regarding the emphasis on family. Polaris has its new Evo which targets families and growing riding skills. Even aside from new sleds, there are so many capable, reliable older sleds that are well suited to families and family riding, but it has to make sense, on many levels, for more families to get involved to see any sustained growth, i.e., the perception of snowmobiling as a true family activity needs to be fostered . If the current plan is to simply increase costs more and more on fewer and fewer riders while losing trails, then the comment above about the sport swirling down the drain is accurate.

Then you are not paying attention to what is being stated. I had a lot of people in their early 20s on sleds... but they are now suffering the result of financial planning. It is very sad to find a 50-60 year old with retirement savings that will not suffice their retirement... to watch them sell the things they loved... and know that even after it is all gone, there will not be enough. The numbers in the first post are nationwide. US registrations... not new or used sled sales... have fallen approximately 450,000. Canadian registrations... not new or used sled sales, but actual users... have fallen approximately 165,000. The average age of snowmobile owners has gone up 2 years... even with all those inexpensive used sled available to the younger generation. And the amount spend snowmobiling per capita has gone down from an estimated $4000 annually to $2000 annually. Sales... new or used... is not the issue. Registrations falling, registrants being older, and what each registrant is spending annually... those are the issues. Landowners that can no longer afford to hold large parcels... they need the money for retirement... that is an issue. How did that happen? When they were young they didn't care about gross income. Now they are old... they are selling things to live off what income they can muster. Since the median according to the stats is 45 years old... it probably weighs on them more than it does a 20 year old. Polaris and Bombardier realized in their study that the days of the garage full of toys would result in the days of focus on one toy. What will that ''toy'' be in the end? I think it will vary... but it means the community of support will be lower.

It was fun riding in the snow most of the day yesterday. Love to see the TRAIL SIDE hot chocolate Renegade08. We cooked burgers TRAIL SIDE on Saturday and gave the last one away to a lone rider. Shifty...I was passing thru your neck of the woods last Wednesday...trails were a blast. Rode from Groton thru Notch over to Littleton to Warren and back. Rossi...thinking of you at the Common Cafe on Saturday. Great place to ride to on the trail in downtown Rumney for good food and entertainment.

DEEEEP Powder on Aziscohos lake Wednesday the day before the big rain.

Unfortunately you wasting your time talking with NHSA. They are not concerned at all with any trail issues. Their action this year in taking $12 of each club membership fee as a "transaction fee" is nothing less than extortion and only helping to sink clubs financially. You need to start with the NH BOT and the clubs themselves. The NHBOT staff are the ones that negotiate the land use contracts with the large landowners and the clubs have the trail agreements with the smaller landowners. Having been a snowmobile trail master for 7 years and now an ATV trail master for 5 years, I can tell you that one of the major concerns of ALL landowners (large and small) is off trail riding. On all of the new trails that I have built or rebuilt since 2007, I have included physical barriers on all side trails to make sure people stay on the main trail. When these barriers are removed or breached, we will go in and fix them on a priority basis. If someone cuts a new side trail to get around a barrier, we will block that. If problems continue, we get Fish and Game involved or use game cameras to find out who is causing the damage. This is part of the commitment that must be made to get new trails opened. I don't know any landowner that says "go ahead and put the trail in anywhere that you want". Some landowners will specify exactly where they want the trail. Others will ask for our recommended route. But in the end, we agree on the trail location and provide the landowner with a detailed map that shows exactly where the trail is going along with the location of all bridges, culverts, gates and rock barriers. In addition to our club, the landowner gets keys to all gates. I do not forsee any easy way to open up off trail riding. In addition to the sensitive environmental areas that need to be protected, lets talk about the practical aspects. Just look at the tree damage from the wet snows that occurred this year. Even if you were able to get landowner permission to run on an ungroomed trail through their land, who is going to maintain it? I can tell you that cutting trees that bent over and frozen to the ground is not only dangerous but extremely hard work. On a groomed trail, the club normally uses the club groomer to help push these trees aside once they have been cut up, but that won't be allowed on ungroomed trails. Having begged for help in clearing our groomed trails over the past 12 years, I doubt very much you will get any of these riders to show up and spend a day hauling a chain saw through 2' deep snow to clear downed trees so they can ride a few miles of fresh powder. Its not much fun doing this work even when I have the groomer. At the end of the day, you are totally wet and exhausted. How about washouts? On our main trails we spent thousands of dollars putting in bridges, culverts and ditches to control water. What do you think those unmaintained trails look like right now after the deluge of rain that we just got? I am sure there are dozens of 2' deep washouts all over the place. Right now the only legal off-trail riding that I know of is in Jericho Mt. State Park. All of the ungroomed ATV trails make great places to hone your off-trail skills. But even there, you may find downed trees or washouts blocking your way so be prepared to cut your way through or turn around.

It was great, but I sure am feeling it today....

Below is a list of bills and there title. If you go to the following link you can put in the bill number and see the wording and when it will be heard. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/ There is at least one more bill coming that will be a senate bill having to do with registration. FN on the end of the bill number means that the bill has something to do with finance/money. Just giving the heads up. 2019-HB-498-FN An act prohibiting OHRV operation on class V ways 2019-HB-591 An act amending the laws governing OHRV's and Snowmobiles 2019-HB-592 An act relative to OHRV operation and license 2019-HB-630-FN An act increasing certain fines for OHRV and Snowmobile operation violations 2019-HB-660-FN An act relative to studying the economic and other impacts of OHRV use in New Hampshire 2019-HB-683-FN An act relative to the rights of property owners abutting certain highways and railtrails 2019-HB-699-FN An act relative to discounts for OHRV and snowmobile registration

Couple from this past weekend......

Stinson Mountain and the rocket on Saturday

No one is perfect and a honest mistake is, a honest mistake. Guess some people don't make mistakes though. Guess F&G thought they did. Also, Polaris on their SXS ,DO use GPS for rental companies to guide people around. So yes you do use it for guidance.

Just another nice picture to go with everyone else's great pictures...Stinson Lake from a lake view and 1/2 hour later from a mountain view.

Since it was "free" weekend in VT and Maine I staying in NH and had a blast. I called everyone I knew with a sled and nobody could get up to ride with me so I went alone. I rode out of my place in Twin on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and rode through Twin, Bethlehem, Dalton, Whitefield, Littleton, and Lisbon. I saw more groomers than sleds on Thursday and Friday. It was 5 star awesome out there with blue skies for most of the riding. Glad I got in 250 miles before the torch down this week. I can't image it will be that amazing again for awhile...

I would be all over it! They should add some extra dollars on the registration increase for my salary and expenses...I will make the state money just like a FINE! That would be FINE for me!

Classicdmax, hendo, and I tore up the great white north today. 170 miles. Cold and fast. Lancaster to west stewartstown and back, lunch st SDR

Like I was saying about those GPS things....... People put way too much faith in them.

Good thread my sons first time on trails with me, he loved it. We’ll be back up together in a few weeks to get him back out there

I only rode two miles in circles at my parents house, but I got to watch this....Life is good.

1/27/2019 CNHSC Nice family ride today including some trail-side hot cocoa in a beautiful snowfall.

For active club members, it is pretty common... though I have to admit I have found several officers that did not know the information was public. I think the decline in snowmobile registrations is due to the Polaris/Bombardier Marketing Study done in 1995, and released to the public at the ISC in 1998. They determined that discretionary income was not growing in traditional snowmobile regions and would over the next twenty years result in declines. They further determined that much of what was being considered as discretionary income was in actuality income that was being diverted from other long term goals... retirement being the one delivered at that time. The Study felt that going forward... the aging snowmobile community... would hit the pre-retirement age and shake out. As for speed and off-trail riding... I think you fail repeatedly to recognize that landowners determine much of that. So a bigger issue would be the loss of land access. The concessions would need to be by landowners open to the concept. Those landowners are the powers. Some will be against, some will be open... or at least I think some will be open... since other formats of usage that have been told for a very long time that they would not get landowner support, when they asked landowners found they could.

My new(ish) sled hasn’t even left my yard yet. With working 12 hour days, club activities, dealing with a flooded basement thanks to Mother Nature, etc, etc, I just havent’t had time. But I did have about an hour of “free” time today, so with conditions the way they are locally, I decided to ride my ‘72 Olympique up to Andover and back. It has bogie wheels, so no worries about melting sliders with the icy conditions. Here’s what it looked like when I got back. So much fun...

My son and his best bro then the 2 boy along side their old men. Doesnt get any better than that

It still comes down to respect. No matter what you ride, you RESPECT the land owner, see above picture. It doesn't matter what the dealer pushes, you RESPECT the land owner, and if you only ride trails, you RESPECT the other riders. Plain and simple

I'm pretty sure when you go to a dealer and buy a mountain sled, the dealer isn't going to have a class on proper riding and landowner respect. They're going to take the money and hand over the sled, SO actually it DOES matter what the manufacturers push. Posters on the dealer walls of sleds side hilling and high marking. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do with the sled, so let's do it. If you're a 20 something making your first sled purchase, all you care about is the fun, not the consequence.

Clicked off a quick solo 50 around Littleton today. Finally get to see what my new to me sled is capable of and I’m more than impressed. The power never stops. This could be trouble.......

6 yrs ago!

Agreed W.O.O.N. (Not sure you like W.O.O.N. but way easier than spelling it all!) Evolution did move the sport to this. The crappy part is that the sport WAY outpaced the places... Case in point: Maine Department of Inland Fisheries & Wildlife January 19 at 7:15 AM · ITS85N between Greenville and Elephant Mountain has recently been closed down due to the disappointing decision by some riders in the Secret Pond logging operation to ride off the marked trails and ultimately causing damage to the log yard. The majority of Maine's snowmobile trails are on private land and we have no sense of humor for this level of abuse. Have respect for Maine's landowners and the volunteers who work hard to maintain trails for all to enjoy. This is in Maine.. Unfortunately with the big push for big tracks, anywhere the sled can go is where they ride. How do we convince, with the hype, videos of off trail riding, and the trend we are in right now with it, "younger riders" not to wreck what many "older riders" have worked so hard for?

You are not the only person who has a wife, kids, who spends their time with kids, is active in the community, and other obligations. We all have that, but yet you want us to take care of this because you don't have time? You posed a question, I gave you a very strait forward and valid answer to contact the NSA about this. Your response was to tell me you don't have the time and to call me one of NH's snowmobiling problems and that you don't care, what I've done before. For the record I have never claimed to have done anything or posted that I've done, this or I've done that, so I don't know where that came from, but hey whatever, nice attitude. And then there was this "Many of you have been doing great work for sledding in NH for a long time. That does not mean the ball wasn’t dropped" Nice back handed complement, you guys did great, but you dropped the ball, and we are all gonna go to Maine unless you fix it. You said "Younger generation doesn’t want to deal with out dated laws when they are going to get rung up for $75+ a ticket." The younger generation needs to step up and get involved if they don't like something and help to change laws, but that takes time, work, and effort. If they don't make time to help change it or run off to Maine, then things will never change. If they expect someone else to do it for them, then things will never change.

Because you were being a dick? LOL come on, now that was funny All kidding aside, You want NH to be an attraction for the next generation and moving forward, but if that is going to happen the next generation is going to have to put in the work to make it happen, not just run off to another state because it's easier. They can't expect someone else to do it for them, they have to help make it happen. I always see "they should", "the state should", never "we should". At the end of the day we all love snowmobiling and want to see it last here in NH, but we have to work together to make it happen. The name calling and mud slinging on both sides accomplishes nothing and needs to stop. We need to work together, united we stand, divided we fall.

I’ve read them all, it’s all been constructive conversation. But if the problem is with lack of registrations, then nhsa has to widen its eyes to the bigger picture. Not sure raising fees is the solution, but volume in registrations is. As well as the impact on local businesses with more riders. its like any other governing body, when budgets are falling short the easy answer (to them) is to increase taxes

So here is a thought on off trail riding, and only a thought. When you register your sled, it states on the reg that you acknowledge that it is illegal and you know you will lose your snowmobiling rights in the state of NH for the year. Your reg sticker is taken and it goes on your drivers license also, plus a fine. As for speeding, well you are not going to stop that unless you treat it as a automobile speeding ticket.

@Skip- LOL!!! And good point @CATRESERVE... OFF TRAIL is not "legal" in Maine. It's more accessible b/c of the vastly larger amount of uninhabited land... Read "Where you can ride" at http://www.mesnow.com/SnowmobileLaws.html "..Never ride on any property, unless you are on a signed snowmobile trail, without the landowner's permission..."

Do you think that NH is different than the national average of 80%-90% of riding being done on trails? How many NH riders do you think want to ride off-trail? I don't see any way that NH can compete with the large amount of uninhabited land in northern Maine for off-trail riders.

I found one on eBay in Wisconsin. It’s here already. I bought this anyway.

Dave I respectfully disagree. Grooming $ is NOT what is killing clubs, lack of volunteers and members are what is killing clubs off. The volunteer mindset seems to be a thing of the past and its getting harder and harder to get volunteers to do the tasks needed to keep the trails and clubs open. If your looking to get enough $ into GIA to pay for all the currently volunteered services than you'd need to triple if not quadruple the registration cost. After talking to a few registration agents the number of people registering as non club members this year will give GIA a decent boost, but at the cost of a few more clubs. At what point does it all collapse onto itself? I think we're starting down a long and bumpy road!

Snowmobiling is now a rich mans/womans activity...Not only can I not afford a new sled, now I can barely afford to register what I have...and now they want to take away the vintage plates or cut off the year at 1995 as well (one year older than my sleds) great, just great, the only thing I had to look forward to looks like it will be taken away too....

I'd like to keep it quiet as well on just how good CNHSC trails are... but I can't be that greedy. I have a cabin right at Junction T, 155/152. Family was sick last weekend so we had to stay in MA. Can't wait to ride this weekend. Brutal cold and lots of snow coming!! @Yamiblue If you're trailering up and parking, park right at the police/fire station, immediately off exit 28. There's a wide road next to the train tracks where loads of folks unload. Cross 49, head west to access all the trails...and gas up easily at Chesley's mini mart if need be. Here's a link to parking by fire/police station.. https://goo.gl/maps/w7VXCPNXBcH2 2 weeks ago had the little one bombing around the field by our place.

EXACTLY. Poor signage is a great example, or you just show them what the GPS is showing you while standing there. Maybe the F&G could not see and signage either, no diamonds.

These are from the statewide map. Note that C17 stopped at Pawtuckaway Park, no connection to C6. And now C15 terminates in Windham. Still, most of what was there is still there.

If my memory is serving me correctly there are some over 4000 LANDOWNERS that make up the NH 7000 mile system. Based on the "fragmentation of the land area of NH coupled to the distance and areas desired (for off trail) you can be assured NH starts with limitations! One other factor is that Maine is 33,000 square miles Coos County is just under 1800 with the whole State of NH covering just Under 9000 miles, food for thought!

Likewise! We've done several runs through the area but haven't made it to CC yet. The Rumney club's trails have been a 10 each time we've hit them!

I took SmallEngines comment to you as; the manufacturers bear responsibility for disregarding for rules of the sport they promote, they did so by. Instead of educational/proper promotion. They promoted mountain sleds like everywhere in America is the Mid West. As stewarts of the sport they took advantage of a money maker instead of what’s good in the long term

So you want landowner permission, but you don't want to do the work? The NHSA isn't going to do the work for you. You have to locate landowners willing to either provide you with written permission to trespass, or provide an organized club with permission for the public to trespass. I'm not trying to tell you that they are out there... but my experience tells me that they exist. How large a lot and the quality of terrain that they provide may be an issue... but maybe not. In the end, the loss of any recreational format is largely due to the cost being beyond discretionary household income; and society quickly moves toward pay-to-play. At 35, you may not be able to see the future financial you, while those of us in our 50s... we see more than we would like.

The problem is finding, and organizing the people to do so. The off-road club I was part of it was always the same 5-6 of us doing the leg work....I’m sure the same is true for snowmobile clubs as well. But 5 or 6 is a start, and if that’s what it takes to make change....then success

I think I agree with wideopenornothin, I believe NH does need to adapt. I don’t ride back country nor do I have the desire at the moment, but wouldn’t mind trying it someday. To lose the younger generation of riders, the future of snowmobiling to the lack of off trail riding will not help the cause at all. i used to be part of the 4x4/rock crawling community. For us the big issue was access to land and education. Often access wasn’t easy to attain without educating others to our sport. I’m not suggesting I’ll lead the way, but maybe folks/nhsa need to take a moment to understand and educate themselves to the needs of other riders and their desired riding style

After a long hiatus, i'm back. YUP, another "old fart" is back. Things have changed though. I am now retired, after 23 years of doing it. I have moved north to West Stewartstown. The big purple truck, Barney, is gone, miss the ole girl. Sleds have changed, have picked up a 4 seat RZR for the summer. So, if you see the orange Crossfire with the guy wearing a 509 helmet with pink braids flying, that would be me. Ride on, ride safe.

We meet enough idiots on the trails with the limit at 45. Raise it (depending on how much and where) and the wife and I are out of sledding.

John I agree with you. All someone has to do is ask and I will be more than happy to help on any issue. There are many steps involved to get to an end product.